From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Apr 17 04:38:46 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 17 Apr 2007 04:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Hdm12-00084r-NU for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 04:38:37 -0700 Received: from mclmx.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.10]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Hdm0P-00084W-Dm for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 04:38:24 -0700 Received: from 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.21] [149.8.64.21]) by mclmx.mail.saic.com for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 07:37:46 -0400 Received: from 0015-its-exbh02.us.saic.com ([10.43.229.22]) by 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.5.66) with SMTP id M2007041707374605741 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2007 07:37:46 -0400 Received: from 0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com ([10.75.0.188]) by 0015-its-exbh02.us.saic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 17 Apr 2007 07:37:46 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C780E4.D1A42401" Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Lojban geography and cultures Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 07:37:46 -0400 Message-Id: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7C9F@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7C9E@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] Re: Lojban geography and cultures Thread-Index: AceAcIXz8FQOWPBsTcKHkudALrOHIgAb4kJwAAEZUsA= From: "Turniansky, Michael" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Apr 2007 11:37:46.0311 (UTC) FILETIME=[D1BD9570:01C780E4] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4273 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C780E4.D1A42401 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That should have read "Italy with 58 million, and Palestine with less than 4 million". The four got deleted. Sorry. =20 =20 ________________________________ From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of Turniansky, Michael Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:29 AM To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Lojban geography and cultures =20 I've always assumed that xinjda would be Hinduism, no? The cultural gismu are very broad. For example, I'm sure Israeli Muslims and Christians wouldn't like being lumped together in "xebro" along with "Judaism", but there you are. There is no cultural gismu for Italian (although talno has been proposed), with 58 million and yet there is one for Palestinian with less than million people. Lack of cultural bias? No, that's an almost-meaningless catchphrase thrown around the lojban community (and inherited from loglan). What it really means in terms of neutrality is that the grammar allows you the flexibility to express things in any number of grammatical ways, reflecting the grammar of a huge variety of natural languages (and many ore ways not reflective of any natural language), and that the wordstock did not come from any single language or language family, but is a blending of languages spoken by billions of people, thereby obscuring any cultural bias in word choice. The vocabulary itself, on the other hand, makes choices on what it can say easily and what it can't. (Why is there a native word (gismu) for lions, tigers, and elephants, but none for zebras, rhinos, or hippo (or antelope, but I suppose some would argue "mirli" can be used for that)? Why for rat and mouse and rabbit, but not squirrel or raccoon (or even "rodent" in general)? Why for rose and tulip, but not for daisy or lily? Etc. etc.) Everything comes down to choices made by the language creators, and as such, represents a bias of some sort or other. So I don't personally speak of lojban as "culturally-neutral" except when it comes to the grammar and word sources. Period. =20 --gejyspa no'u lo jdazerpre =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C780E4.D1A42401 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That should have read = “Italy with 58 million, and Palestine with less than 4 = million”.  The four got deleted.  Sorry.

 

 

From: = lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of Turniansky, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, = 2007 7:29 AM
To: = lojban-beginners@lojban.org
Subject: = [lojban-beginners] Re: Lojban geography and cultures

 

  I’ve always assumed = that xinjda would be Hinduism, no?  The cultural gismu are very = broad.  For example, I’m sure Israeli Muslims and Christians = wouldn’t like being lumped together in “xebro” along with = “Judaism”, but there you are.  There is no cultural gismu for Italian = (although talno has been proposed), with 58 million and yet there is one for Palestinian = with less than  million people.  Lack of cultural bias?  No, that’s an almost-meaningless catchphrase thrown around the lojban community (and inherited from loglan).  What it really means in = terms of neutrality is that the grammar allows you the flexibility to express = things in any number of grammatical ways, reflecting the grammar of a huge variety = of natural languages (and many ore ways not reflective of any natural = language), and that the wordstock did not come from any single language or language family, but is a blending of languages spoken by billions of people, = thereby obscuring any cultural bias in word choice.  The vocabulary itself, = on the other hand, makes choices on what it can say easily and what it can’t.  (Why is there a native word (gismu) for lions, = tigers, and elephants, but none for zebras, rhinos, or hippo (or antelope, but I = suppose some would argue “mirli” can be used for that)?  Why = for rat and mouse and rabbit, but not squirrel or raccoon (or even = “rodent” in general)?  Why for rose and tulip, but not for daisy or = lily?  Etc. etc.)  Everything comes down to choices made by the language creators, and as such, represents a bias of some sort or other. =   So I don’t personally speak of lojban as = “culturally-neutral” except when it comes to the grammar and word sources.  = Period.

 

      =             &= nbsp;         --gejyspa no’u lo jdazerpre

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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