From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Apr 19 06:46:51 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 19 Apr 2007 06:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HeWyH-0003iq-5Y for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 19 Apr 2007 06:46:50 -0700 Received: from mclmx2.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.32] ident=[U2FsdGVkX1/n2vYBLHVT7aIE4Vqemw8rTIbH1DAMwa0=]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HeWyA-0003iP-RO for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 19 Apr 2007 06:46:48 -0700 Received: from 0015-its-ieg01.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.21] [149.8.64.21]) by mclmx2.mail.saic.com for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:46:34 -0400 Received: from 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com ([10.43.229.18]) by 0015-its-ieg01.mail.saic.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.5.66) with SMTP id M2007041909463425431 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:46:34 -0400 Received: from 0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com ([10.75.0.188]) by 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:46:32 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Please review # 001 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:46:32 -0400 Message-Id: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7CA9@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <624557.19361.qm@web88002.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] Re: Please review # 001 Thread-Index: AceCh1eIK4Cvjl5fS5SUt0oLLEcAQwAACLag From: "Turniansky, Michael" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Apr 2007 13:46:32.0885 (UTC) FILETIME=[23F6B650:01C78289] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4311 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Yes, "ca" is a slippery one, and I, too, used to use "ti'u" when I was first starting out, since it seemed from the short descriptionCLL to have the meaning wanted. What "ca" does is it can act as a modal (As can other tenses), meaning "during event...." or "at the same time as..." so "ca le cerni" or "ce lo cerni" (I would personally argue either one was correct, and would suggest that your original "le" was actually the preferred one here, since you were referring to a particular morning (presumably this one)") would mean "during the morning" (=in the morning). ki'u, like all modals, must be followed by only a single sumti, not a complete bridi like "mi sutra..., etc.". So you have to make that into a single sumti if you want to keep it in the same sentence as the rest of it. "le/lo nu" acts a general "convert bridi into sumti" operator. The other option, is start a whole new sentence, starting it with ".i ki'u bo", where the bo essentially means "tie this sentence in with the previous sentence, with the ki'u covereing the whole whint" As to attitudinals, while you certainly can use the "bilga le/lo nu" construction, it just make the sentence structure less complicated. Personal stylistic preference (I tend to use the gismus myself in most cases). Gratitude -- ki'e ("thank you") (from "ckire") (strictly speking, a "vocative", not an "attitudinal") --gejyspa -----Original Message----- From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of ANDREW PIEKARSKI Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:31 AM To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Please review # 001 Thanks, Pierre. Please help me understand some of your suggestions. Generally, I would like to know when I made grammatical errors, and when the style was awkward though grammatical. 1) My use of {ti'u}. Was this, in fact ungrammatical? {le cerni} obviously should have been {lo cerni} but {ca} is always a problem for me. Sometimes it signifies the present tense, and sometimes "during" - so I avoided it. Why then {ca}? 2) My use of {ki'u}. So are you saying that instead of {ki'u mi bilga lenu klama} I should have written either ...iki'ubo mi bilga lenu klama... or ...ki'u lonu mi bilga lenu klama... Why either? 3) My use of {bilga}. Are you saying that it is usually or always better to use attitudinals like {.ei} rather than their gismu equivalents? 4) In any case, I was looking also for an attitudinal that expresses the emotion of gratitiude - but I couldn't find one. Is there one? mu'o mi'e .andrus. ----- Original Message ---- From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 5:08:14 AM Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Please review # 001 On Wednesday 18 April 2007 23:51, ANDREW PIEKARSKI wrote: > Hi all, > > Please review my translation and make appropriate suggestions. Apart from > the grammar, are there better ways of saying this?: > > "In the morning, I drink coffee quickly as I have to go to my kid's school > in order to meet his teacher." > > .i ti'u le cerni mi cu sutra pinxe lo ckafi ki'u mi bilga lenu klama le > ckule pe le mi panzi tezu'e lenu penmi le ri ctuca {ti'u} is normally used with a number, such as {ti'u li so [pe lo cerni]}; I'd say {ca lo cerni}. {cu} is not necessary after {mi}, but is grammatical. {ki'u} has to be either {iki'ubo} or {ki'u lo nu}. Instead of {mi bilga lenu klama}, I'd say {ei mi klama}. Pierre