From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Apr 20 10:08:35 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Hewb4-0007vt-N8 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:08:35 -0700 Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.89]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Hewax-0007vm-Bq for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:08:34 -0700 Received: from mailgate.denbridgemarine.com ([83.104.25.50]) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Hewav-000KfT-4t for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 17:08:25 +0000 Received: from strontium.elements (support.denbridgemarine.com [83.104.25.51]) (using SSLv3 with cipher EXP1024-RC4-SHA (56/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mailgate.denbridgemarine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ABE150851 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2007 18:08:25 +0100 (BST) From: Colin Wright Organization: Denbridge Marine Ltd To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Constructive comments requested. Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 18:08:23 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 References: <625064.23499.qm@web88007.mail.re2.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <625064.23499.qm@web88007.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200704201808.24005.colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4335 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Colin Wright wrote: > ... my web ... page on the lojban language. > I'd particularly appreciate comments from beginners ... ANDREW PIEKARSKI replied: AP> Colin, I write as a complete novice, but I have a AP> professional marketing communications background. Thanks for your reply Andrew. The different viewpoint is valuable. I'm going to disagree with most of them because I think our viewpoints and objectives differ radically. I do, however, appreciate your input, and am considering changes based on it. Taking some of your points out of order ... AP> ... the question you need to ask yourself first is what is AP> your prime target audience ... Then, what do you want to AP> achieve ... Websites that try to be all things to all men AP> just don't work. Indeed. My aim is not to "market" lojban. Nor is my aim to promote lojban actively. My aim is to have something that will cause people to stop and go "Hmm, that's interesting." The sort of people I expect to visit my site are not the great unwashed masses, and so the site is not designed to be pretty, whizzy, flashy or "cool". It's intended to be "interesting" to those who like puzzles and other deeper ideas. It's definitely form over content. Perhaps too much so, but perhaps not. AP> Take a look at http://www.interlingua.com/ and http://www.uea.org/ AP> to see a credible attempt at doing what's needed. Hate them. Turned me off instantly. AP> A good lojban dynamic website, as opposed to a Wiki, is certainly AP> needed to attract new people. I doubt "needed", but it's certainly true that a *good* web site would be useful. I think the existing http://www.lojban.org has considerable merit, but the default page feels overly full, and overly busy. However, I'm not a typical visitor, so I'm trying to create something else. I'd like to know what *content* could go on that page to hook people. I'm not going to have more eye-candy. That can be done by someone who (a) finds it interesting (b) finds it attractive and (c) thinks it would be useful. AP> Wikis are ok once you've roped the newbies in and on AP> the way - but you've got to get them in the first place. I agree you have to get them in and participating. I think the people you want are not the people you'll get with flash graphics and overly long page loading times. I think you want people who want to think, and who like puzzles. AP> From personal experience, I can state that the lack of visual AP> pizzazz and the contradictions that are a necessary aspect of AP> wikis can be really offputting ! I can state from personal experience that the lack of visual clutter and the wealth of content make wikis the most attractive kind of web site available. I'm not sure what you mean by "... the contradictions that are a necessary aspect of wikis ...". Would you care to expand that? Certainly discussion boards and wikis are not the first place for beginners, but I think they can play a crucial role. AP> I would love to do something like this. I did the websites for the AP> company I work for - using an outside software company as I am not a AP> programmer. What's needed is an open-source Content Management System AP> like OpenCMS or Typo3, a programmer with graphics design abilities to AP> craft it and, above all, time (obviously stolen from lojban-learning AP> activities). Anybody out there interested? Include me out. Apart from attracting initial interest, I think what's lacking is the equivalent of children's books. Not complex things like "Alice", or intense things like "The Red Mask", but children's adventure and action stories. Direct, simple, full of things happening that make you want to know what's coming next. "Harry Potter", "Guards! Guards!" or "Artemis Fowl", for example, although they are all too long. I'd also like to see tools to help beginners *generate* text. Then we can have beginners writing for beginners, and create the body of text we need. I think we need to two-part "Dive into lojban" resource. Just my opinion(s). -- Dr C.D.Wright, Director of Innovation and Engineering Denbridge Marine Limited, Cammell Lairds Waterfront Park, Campbeltown Road, Birkenhead, Wirral, Merseyside, CH41 9HP.