From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Apr 21 09:03:41 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HfI3k-0005Ap-CV for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:03:37 -0700 Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.246]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HfI3A-00059g-4v for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:03:27 -0700 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b8so1230023ana for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:02:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=kUMWn6zSc7MiOEM2ugw7HDkNydELkGS2CpMa4S28qgnE7iX3CyptXh5cESO0qm+i+v3f5IEUZcevTTQfFBlJZ/2OpQj2FuxPC24aggcVJN+s37f02s0fAsaq/U8WHL1fT0+gSYL3/qXFxI1kPqEnvgmc+XW2gAC2J9lnTR9kN+A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=gQLdbDgIJxBIqOnyqTnIEHYzprNSsmXr1N9h/kg2TzIfpxBG1NtmLPH4jx8JwxQMUZ/+lI8CL1JAGj5VQtG/ATInjYwu9aWGfSwVmDPIULEg8OzB+g/gHRv863za+w1oPY7XJS/JKArlUY1qU7vP3rd6x46tsq2SNhrCsXrPeNk= Received: by 10.100.128.8 with SMTP id a8mr2448278and.1177171378184; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.42.16 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560704210902v3d7199d6jc2d52bb3231eeb96@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 13:02:58 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Please review #002 In-Reply-To: <533166.94142.qm@web88013.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <533166.94142.qm@web88013.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Score-Int: -25 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4357 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 4/21/07, ANDREW PIEKARSKI wrote: > > There seem to be two variables to consider: > 1) is this something specific I have in mind (a), or is it general > (as in English "the" or "a/some" (b)? That's the main thing, yes, with the caveat that {lo} can also be used for something specific if you don't care to emphasize the specificity. This is unlike English "the", which is obligatory. You can't really say "a mother of mine" in English when you have only one mother and so you must be referring to her, but {lo mamta be mi} is perfectly fine in Lojban to refer to your one and only mother. {lo} does _not_ indicate non-specificity. It just doesn't bring specificity into it. > 2) is it real (c) or, is it something that may or may not be real (d)? I suggest you don't concentrate too much on this. Yes, {le} allows you to use a predicate suggestively rather than literally, but this is rarely what it is used for. > That gives four possible combinations of article: ac, ad, bc, bd > > Now "le" seems to correspond to ad and "lo" seems to correspond to bc. {le} would be for ac/ad and {lo} would be for ac/bc. But be careful, "real" has nothing to do with it. "Literal" would be a better word. "literally a unicorn", "literally an event of pigs flying", etc. are perfectly fine for {lo}, even though unicorns and events of pigs flying are not real. If what you are referring to is to just that, and not to something else that you choose to describe as that, then {lo} is fine: lo nu viska lo cribe cu se terpa Seeing a bear is scary. That refers to events of seeing a bear, not necessarily to any actually ocurring such event, but yes literally to such events. mu'o mi'e xorxes