From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Apr 21 09:05:02 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HfI4y-0005Bm-Nx for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:04:54 -0700 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.170]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HfI4Z-0005BX-Vk for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:04:50 -0700 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 32so1055296ugm for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:04:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=YjJ5abGiq02Cyp8P26DkOXvckzFjF+NcHodRUrycimSTi6g+EOu8nplaLg6okgU5vW1xKtpu+1eNdZHc67iPe1HWaRzdvEu58hYP459CKr58dj7vy/N3wTI77u5NHjtGeulcW6NGkNqGSnvbatgmyvkKYmMFz5Oar1hDIWsDfpc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=L3Zc1WOs24jcoFNQLaXgL4F6NJJv6o6WN2bA0jNw0JObeYhQRgQhPbKoUK3fMBQdWHJtIujZZYJ8dVZ/FpE1ACeqHu/bCzgahRBWBOxT839HUGx3n8cWqRKL03/hxE/vqnPUoo6khhiSfVbJ7erBkbjnkY0z5ej4Nba8GXUXsOs= Received: by 10.82.188.15 with SMTP id l15mr6340163buf.1177171460676; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.105.2 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Apr 2007 09:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <702226df0704210904h58457397gf72cd025bd303209@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 10:04:20 -0600 From: "Jon \"Top Hat\" Jones" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Please review #002 In-Reply-To: <533166.94142.qm@web88013.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_39752_12630390.1177171460584" References: <533166.94142.qm@web88013.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4358 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_39752_12630390.1177171460584 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Okay, here's how I understand it: 'le' means a specific thing, which you choose to call zo'e, such as 'le cribe' for 'the specific thing I have in mind and choose to call "bear"'. You could be talking about anything that might plausibly fit the x1 of cribe, such as a real bear, toy bear, or dog named 'Bear'. 'lo' means anything that is considered actually that- so 'lo karce' could be anything that has four wheels or more and an internal combustion or alternative engine for locomotion. Bear, being a dog, can not be 'lo cribe'. Does this help? On 4/21/07, ANDREW PIEKARSKI wrote: > > With so many combinations of lenu and lonu suggested for my last to > requested reviews, I'm probably less clear on the whole issue than > before. So here goes again - with special apologies to gejyspa who has > already made a titanic effort to help me understand. > > There seem to be two variables to consider: > 1) is this something specific I have in mind (a), or is it general (as in > English "the" or "a/some" (b)? > 2) is it real (c) or, is it something that may or may not be real (d)? > > That gives four possible combinations of article: ac, ad, bc, bd > > Now "le" seems to correspond to ad and "lo" seems to correspond to bc. > > Question 1: What about ac and bd? > Quesion 2: Why is it that these two variable determine the choice of > article. The first seems obvious (as in English) but why the second (i.e. > does the lack of this second variable cause any ambiguity problems in > languages where it does not exist?) > > mu'o mi'e .andrus. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Pierre Abbat > To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 11:21:15 PM > Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Please review #002 > > > On Friday 20 April 2007 22:27, ANDREW PIEKARSKI wrote: > > So, Pierre, you're suggesting "ca'o" for "while" and "ca" for > "when". But > > in the dictionary, "ca" means "during". Isn't that closer to "while"? > > "ca" means that two events occur at the same time but says nothing about > their > duration. One could start when the other ends, or one could be > instantaneous, > and it still occurs ca the other one. "ca'o" indicates an ongoing event or > one that takes some time. > > > Also, I deliberately wanted to try out a tanru for "going to buy". If > the > > tanru I used were reversed to "te vecnu" klama, wouldn't it work? > > It would, but you'd have to put the object of "te vecnu" in a be-phrase: > le mi > mamta pu te vecnu be lo jisra be'o klama. You could invert them with "co": > le > mi mamta pu klama co te vecnu lo jisra. > > > gejyspa and komfo,amonan suggested "xruti" and "xrukla" for > "return". What > > exactly is the difference between them? > > "xrukla" means "go back". "xruti" doesn't imply any going. If I somehow > undyed > my hair, I would say "mi xruti le kerfa le ka rarna skari" .i lei mi kerfa > cu > me'andi skari .i lo nu me'andi skabi'o na ka'e se fatri'a .i mi prami le > me'andi skari > > mu'omi'e pier. > > > > -- mu'o mi'e .topy'at. .i.uenai ko klama le bende be denpa bu ------=_Part_39752_12630390.1177171460584 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Okay, here's how I understand it:

'le' means a specific thing, which you choose to call zo'e, such as 'le cribe' for 'the specific thing I have in mind and choose to call "bear"'. You could be talking about anything that might plausibly fit the x1 of cribe, such as a real bear, toy bear, or dog named 'Bear'.

'lo' means anything that is considered actually that- so 'lo karce' could be anything that has four wheels or more and an internal combustion or alternative engine for locomotion. Bear, being a dog, can not be 'lo cribe'.

Does this help?

On 4/21/07, ANDREW PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote:
With so many combinations of lenu and lonu suggested for my last to requested reviews, I'm probably less clear on the whole issue than before.  So here goes again - with special apologies to gejyspa who has already made a titanic effort to help me understand.

There seem to be two variables to consider:
1) is this something specific I have in mind (a), or is it general (as in English "the" or "a/some" (b)?
2) is it real (c) or, is it something that may or may not be real (d)?

That gives four possible combinations of article: ac, ad, bc, bd

Now "le" seems to correspond to ad and "lo" seems to correspond to bc.

Question 1: What about ac and bd?
Quesion 2: Why is it that these two variable determine the choice of article.  The first seems obvious (as in English) but why the second ( i.e. does the lack of this second variable cause any ambiguity problems in languages where it does not exist?)

mu'o mi'e .andrus.





----- Original Message ----
From: Pierre Abbat < phma@phma.optus.nu>
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 11:21:15 PM
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Please review #002


On Friday 20 April 2007 22:27, ANDREW PIEKARSKI wrote:
> So, Pierre, you're suggesting "ca'o" for "while" and "ca" for "when".  But
> in the dictionary, "ca" means "during". Isn't that closer to "while"?

"ca" means that two events occur at the same time but says nothing about their
duration. One could start when the other ends, or one could be instantaneous,
and it still occurs ca the other one. "ca'o" indicates an ongoing event or
one that takes some time.

> Also, I deliberately wanted to try out a tanru for "going to buy".  If the
> tanru I used were reversed to "te vecnu" klama, wouldn't it work?

It would, but you'd have to put the object of "te vecnu" in a be-phrase: le mi
mamta pu te vecnu be lo jisra be'o klama. You could invert them with "co": le
mi mamta pu klama co te vecnu lo jisra.

> gejyspa and komfo,amonan suggested "xruti" and "xrukla" for "return".  What
> exactly is the difference between them?

"xrukla" means "go back". "xruti" doesn't imply any going. If I somehow undyed
my hair, I would say "mi xruti le kerfa le ka rarna skari" .i lei mi kerfa cu
me'andi skari .i lo nu me'andi skabi'o na ka'e se fatri'a .i mi prami le
me'andi skari

mu'omi'e pier.






--
mu'o mi'e .topy'at.

.i.uenai ko klama le bende be denpa bu ------=_Part_39752_12630390.1177171460584--