From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri May 25 11:52:24 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 25 May 2007 11:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Hretj-0006Er-Pt for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 11:52:24 -0700 Received: from qb-out-0506.google.com ([72.14.204.233]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Hreth-0006Ei-7j for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 11:52:23 -0700 Received: by qb-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id z1so552522qbc for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 11:52:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=AKcVGKfi6AquGt9MC82o72I3wxsFEGp/zz0fzQ+MWvSkBpCmX8L/cKF/5Agn6CM7mguONsS396pb8zx1VDOlHzBzpgIEXUSPVqwhB2QbOGNZjx6Olq06htNTZEjsS6bn5pVGnoK8922F6x5Qvv3GrlUIjOcVdWjNiMC3IoXiHmE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=icK1wiaATy/hLSjSy7VflDBDRT3ENj53CoLz0WxxrudRlRqj0TYAztI2sxZjPEB+Qs7NPo1aUS6Sktt6Mmk5XVkCpKQKLWrR6QJKbJw7TMUEYtiFo7WZsmb3F+g8Asfcp9ILLc9WYU9FY/fR4U80tD+559/mO0//dnO+8FWGXWM= Received: by 10.70.67.15 with SMTP id p15mr4418531wxa.1180119136392; Fri, 25 May 2007 11:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.19 with HTTP; Fri, 25 May 2007 11:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2f91285f0705251152j313b20a7hcf13ddf577503a83@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 19:52:16 +0100 From: "Vid Sintef" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: fanva In-Reply-To: <925d17560705250904t4416df97ya887583325d71ab8@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_90105_6056685.1180119136296" References: <2f91285f0705250608j580ad99bp7b89dccfb45022f2@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560705250904t4416df97ya887583325d71ab8@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 4675 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: picos.picos@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_90105_6056685.1180119136296 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 5/25/07, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > You want {le fadni po'u la'o gy ... gy}, otherwise the second sumti will > fill > a different argument slot. Isn't that a kind of relative phrase? What would you do if you wanted {fadni} to directly describe the {la'o gy ... gy} so that they become a tanru? > 3) Is {lei so'i ...} valid? Also, is the tanru structure {lei ... co ... > ce ... ce ...} valid? > > You could say {so'i ki'o ki'o} for "millions". I would use {jo'u} rather > than {ce}, but the structure is correct. I think "millions of" is quite a metaphor. Even if {so'i ki'o ki'o} can too deliver that metaphoric meaning (so, "many as thousand thousand"), would that be a favourable Lojban expression? I used {ce} because I wanted to mean a set by {lei}. But you're right, {jo'u} sounds better. What is the final {ri}? It refers to {le gunma ke dikca paprysfe}, also you > would need {le drata be ri} if you mean it to fill the x2 of drata. Yes, {ri} is meant to refer to {le gunma ke dikca paprysfe}. And by {le drata ri} I wanted to say "other-type-of le-gunma-ke-dikca-paprysfe" i.e. "other documents of the world wide web". I thought "interlinked web pages" and "documents of the world wide web" are the same things. Hence the pro-sumti reference. But now I'm in doubt myself whether {ri} can make a tanru like {le drata ri}. I don't think {ba'e} corresponds to anything in the English version. > It's as if you said in English: "It is a _network_ of networks", with an > emphasis on "network". You may want {pe'a} for the effect of the quotes > in English, and fu'e-fu'o to extend its effect to the whole phrase, > otherwise ba'e/pe'a only affect the following word. I must have firstly written {ba'e ke ciste be fi lei ciste ke'e} and then somehow changed it. Would that use of {ke ... ke'e} here be valid? {pe'a} looks good, but on the list it isn't said to be a forethought one, while {ba'e} is. You suggested {pe'a fu'e ciste fi lo ciste fu'o}, so, is {pe'a} actually forethought? Then I'm not sure how it differs from {ba'e}. I'm not sure I understand what {ni'i} is doing there. The "network of networks" is an interpretation by which the Internet can be identified. And there is a logical ground on which this interpretation can be possible. If the Internet doesn't "consists of millions of smaller domestic, academic, business, and government networks, which together carry various information and services, such as electronic mail, online chat, fil= e transfer, and the interlinked web pages and other documents of the world wide web", then there isn't a reason by which people should call it a "network of networks". Conversely, if the Internet does "consists ...", the= n that's the reason why the emphasized expression is possible. And that's why I used {ni'i} there. mu'o mi'e vid ------=_Part_90105_6056685.1180119136296 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 5/25/07, Jorge= Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmai= l.com> wrote:
You want {le fadni po'u la'o gy ... gy}, otherwise the second sumti= will fill
a different argument slot.

Isn't tha= t a kind of relative phrase? What would you do if you wanted {fadni} to dir= ectly describe the {la'o gy ... gy} so that they become a tanru?

>= ; 3) Is {lei so'i ...} valid? Also, is the tanru structure {lei ... co = ... ce ... ce ...} valid?

You could say {so'i ki'o ki'o} for "millions"= . I would use {jo'u} rather
than {ce}, but the structure is correct.=

I think "millions of" is quite a metaphor. = Even if {so'i ki'o ki'o} can too deliver that metaphoric meanin= g (so, "many as thousand thousand"), would that be a favourable L= ojban expression?

I used {ce} because I wanted to mean a set by {lei}. But you're= right, {jo'u} sounds better.

What is the final {ri}? It refers to {le gunma ke dikca paprysfe}, also you=
would need {le drata be ri} if you mean it to fill the x2 of drata.

Yes, {ri} is meant to refer to {le gunma ke dikca p= aprysfe}. And by {le drata ri} I wanted to say "other-type-of le-gunma= -ke-dikca-paprysfe"=20 i.e. "other documents of the world wide web". I thought "int= erlinked web pages" and "documents of the world wide web&q= uot; are the same things. Hence the pro-sumti reference. But now I'm in= doubt myself whether {ri} can make a tanru like {le drata ri}.

I d= on't think {ba'e} corresponds to anything in the English version. It's as if you said in English: "It is a _network_ of networks&quo= t;, with an
emphasis on "network". You may want {pe'a} for= the effect of the quotes
in English, and fu'e-fu'o to extend it= s effect to the whole phrase,
otherwise ba'e/pe'a only affect the following word.

I must have firstly written {ba'e ke ciste be fi lei ciste ke= 'e} and then somehow changed it. Would that use of {ke ... ke'e} he= re be valid?

{pe'a} looks good, but on the list it isn't said to be a fo= rethought one, while {ba'e} is. You suggested {pe'a fu'e ciste = fi lo ciste fu'o}, so, is {pe'a} actually forethought? Then I'm= not sure how it differs from {ba'e}.

I&#= 39;m not sure I understand what {ni'i} is doing there.

The "network of networks" is an interpretation by which= the Internet can be identified. And there is a logical ground on which thi= s interpretation can be possible. If the Internet doesn't "consist= s of millions of smaller domestic, academic, business, and government netwo= rks, which together carry various information and services, such as electro= nic mail, online chat, file transfer, and the interlinked web pages and oth= er documents of the world wide web", then there isn't a reason by = which people should call it a "network of networks". Conversely, = if the Internet does "consists ...", then that's the reason w= hy the emphasized expression is possible. And that's why I used {ni'= ;i} there.


m= u'o mi'e vid
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