From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri May 25 13:10:54 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 25 May 2007 13:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Hrg7h-0007xI-J6 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 13:10:54 -0700 Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.250]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Hrg7d-0007wu-C6 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 25 May 2007 13:10:53 -0700 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b21so285880ana for ; Fri, 25 May 2007 13:10:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=WKU8i9ZvYmkUtVihRcVvTL9+zkO9O1LkMhqwWEwcX90i4OjhXOxtxtD9f2g2X3tQbuHII03axjsIrI8lQa1z83Py5ojseDHhL4GkJQJN9TrJ5DOu8kDw9fWfK8Irh50d54NZ0TYPAj14EGQKouWrPsnf09cvQ7UJYDP95382hFE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=a5IQx73OZKXH/25nfRf8D7bAldTfGPcEQ/SgeNjuB1KwUQkm7Py0gkVExA4sUhs+K6b5GyEy0/hA6cZxxBKUTiTCIrsy1DTM7JgH3VPMAJNYNPX5O5rQweapgPwd0D0hVioK5Js8KdJTPphhpocjWdGm0IHAt6tsUZ8GIVjXujg= Received: by 10.100.195.10 with SMTP id s10mr2985729anf.1180123841202; Fri, 25 May 2007 13:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.42.12 with HTTP; Fri, 25 May 2007 13:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560705251310g713b1304s352b04b54ee16412@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 17:10:40 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: fanva In-Reply-To: <2f91285f0705251152j313b20a7hcf13ddf577503a83@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0705250608j580ad99bp7b89dccfb45022f2@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560705250904t4416df97ya887583325d71ab8@mail.gmail.com> <2f91285f0705251152j313b20a7hcf13ddf577503a83@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 4680 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 5/25/07, Vid Sintef wrote: > On 5/25/07, Jorge Llambías wrote: > > > You want {le fadni po'u la'o gy ... gy}, otherwise the second sumti will > fill > > a different argument slot. > > Isn't that a kind of relative phrase? It's a restrictive apposition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apposition > What would you do if you wanted > {fadni} to directly describe the {la'o gy ... gy} so that they become a > tanru? You would have to convert the sumti {la'o gy ... gy} into a tanru unit, with {me}. What does "using the standard Internet Protocol" mean? If it means "using the standard called 'Internet Protocol'", which is what I interpreted, then it's an apposition. If it means "using, among all Internet Protocols, the one we would describe as standard", then a tanru would be better. > > > 3) Is {lei so'i ...} valid? Also, is the tanru structure {lei ... co ... > ce ... ce ...} valid? > > > > You could say {so'i ki'o ki'o} for "millions". I would use {jo'u} rather > > than {ce}, but the structure is correct. > > I think "millions of" is quite a metaphor. Even if {so'i ki'o ki'o} can too > deliver that metaphoric meaning (so, "many as thousand thousand"), would > that be a favourable Lojban expression? Isn't it literally millions? {so'i} by itself doesn't give any idea of the magnitude. "Tens of smaller networks" could also be many networks. > And by {le > drata ri} I wanted to say "other-type-of le-gunma-ke-dikca-paprysfe" i.e. > "other documents of the world wide web". {le drata ri} are two separate sumti, {le drata} and {ri}, each filling a different place. You could say {lo drata me ri}, converting the sumti {ri} into a tanru unit and then forming a tanru with {drata}. > I thought "interlinked web pages" > and "documents of the world wide web" are the same things. Hence the > pro-sumti reference. But now I'm in doubt myself whether {ri} can make a > tanru like {le drata ri}. No, {ri} by itself can't be a tanru unit, but {me ri} can. I think I read the English as "the interlinked (web pages and other documents) of the world wide web". > > I don't think {ba'e} corresponds to anything in the English version. > > It's as if you said in English: "It is a _network_ of networks", with an > > emphasis on "network". You may want {pe'a} for the effect of the quotes > > in English, and fu'e-fu'o to extend its effect to the whole phrase, > > otherwise ba'e/pe'a only affect the following word. > > I must have firstly written {ba'e ke ciste be fi lei ciste ke'e} and then > somehow changed it. Would that use of {ke ... ke'e} here be valid? It's grammatical, yes. > {pe'a} looks good, but on the list it isn't said to be a forethought one, > while {ba'e} is. You suggested {pe'a fu'e ciste fi lo ciste fu'o}, so, is > {pe'a} actually forethought? Then I'm not sure how it differs from {ba'e}. You are right about {pe'a} not being forethought. I was actually thinking of {za'e}, which is in selma'o BAhE, not {pe'a} which is in UI. > > I'm not sure I understand what {ni'i} is doing there. > > The "network of networks" is an interpretation by which the Internet can be > identified. And there is a logical ground on which this interpretation can > be possible. If the Internet doesn't "consists of millions of smaller > domestic, academic, business, and government networks, which together carry > various information and services, such as electronic mail, online chat, file > transfer, and the interlinked web pages and other documents of the world > wide web", then there isn't a reason by which people should call it a > "network of networks". Conversely, if the Internet does "consists ...", then > that's the reason why the emphasized expression is possible. And that's why > I used {ni'i} there. Hmm... So you are reading the English as saying something like "It is a 'network of networks' because it consists of ...", rather than "that consists of ..."? mu'o mi'e xorxes