From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed May 30 09:03:31 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 30 May 2007 09:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HtQe1-0007Ge-Gq for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 30 May 2007 09:03:30 -0700 Received: from 25.mail-out.ovh.net ([213.186.37.103]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HtQdw-0007CR-LF for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 30 May 2007 09:03:28 -0700 Received: (qmail 1128 invoked by uid 503); 30 May 2007 16:00:24 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 30 May 2007 16:00:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail79.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.59) by 25.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 30 May 2007 16:00:24 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 30 May 2007 16:03:24 -0000 Received: from 122.109-225-89.dsl.completel.net (122.109-225-89.dsl.completel.net [89.225.109.122]) by ssl0.ovh.net (IMP) with HTTP for ; Wed, 30 May 2007 18:03:24 +0200 Message-ID: <1180541004.465da04c3628a@ssl0.ovh.net> Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 18:03:24 +0200 From: m.kornig@sondal.net To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: My First Lojban Words 1.4 References: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7D58@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7D58@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.6 X-Originating-IP: 89.225.109.122 X-Spam-Score: 0.6 X-Spam-Score-Int: 6 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 4785 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: m.kornig@sondal.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Selon "Turniansky, Michael \\[UNK\\]" : > Take it from someone who has 5 kids. That is NOT how kids learn > language. They learn it because they hear native speakers conversing in > it around them 12 hours/day for 2-3 years. They do not "repear and use" > properly formed sentences. They start first with one word utterances > (Mama, Papa and No (or equivalents) being the usual first 3 words > learned after about a year of constant "study"). At the crtical age of > 1-3 they pick up many new words a day, but grammar and so forth is still > iffy. Two word utterances such as "ball gone" are picked up usually late > in the second year. They eventually spring to multi word sentences, but > are still not producing properly formed adult-style sentences, and will > do things like overly-generalize ("I runned with Daddy") as they begin > to intuit the rules of grammar, no matter how often they are corrected > (my 4-year-old still says, "I'm am....") (granted, that particular > problem isn't an issue with lojban, since the grammar is entirely > regular). Yes. I observe the same steps/stages and typical mistakes with my adults who learn a foreign language. > So, sure, if you want to spend a few years fluently > conversing in lojban around a frustrated adult beginner and correcting > his mistakes, you might have some success. But that's not what you are > proposing here. You are proposing a static word/phrase book without any > chance of learning grammar, This is what is available now... But I plan to create a dynamic, online e-learning tool. With sound, with pictures, with online exercises, etc. > which will possibly let them learn 117 > words, but nothing else. Certainly nothing higher than the "point and > gesture" stage. In general, second languages by older children and > adults are acquired much differently, using the fact that they already > understand how languages work. You don't have to start them with ground > zero.