From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Jun 02 07:32:02 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 02 Jun 2007 07:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HuUdy-0003JY-L8 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 02 Jun 2007 07:31:52 -0700 Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.246]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HuUdm-0003F7-15 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sat, 02 Jun 2007 07:31:45 -0700 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b21so249389ana for ; Sat, 02 Jun 2007 07:31:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=NJnNxSlthZamwZ1UNPrkjjDwGKIicod4SXEFGRK2yt5RGczuM3jp6ocLhG1NspKbcRlDN6KVsELVB1QEBCHd5Umr/PVuEmmeK3IAN1gPSTBYqpuqMOjwXGe9NOOQ0PBqpjT47og2ZSorFFupwWtgOMZYCaDQhENa8Qt4oISBKQo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=MVr/l2FBwTH/uvj9sy5gxxJmJvSXlZZV1PACbhgAnG0Z6E+1XC6wE4hYVxx6K0ASOyKeUj3WbGrcY9EJA/3NYRNJD9FRKiYz2GGVjpJIi41ZNVlOxfPO3c7f+KQNp4x2qkWfdd1WLy4gsXSVkoPfS3oeCgIBeIir8R9wbl/T1NU= Received: by 10.100.40.17 with SMTP id n17mr1628475ann.1180794694484; Sat, 02 Jun 2007 07:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.42.12 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560706020731i2f28290dxf03960765445a5c8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 11:31:34 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: sequence of tenses? In-Reply-To: <2f91285f0706020506y705ddf77ra74bd624c7217815@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0706020506y705ddf77ra74bd624c7217815@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 4815 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 6/2/07, Vid Sintef wrote: > { mi ba'o cusku lesedu'u mi pu jinvi ledu'u ma kau bebna } > is the answer for Lojban For Beginners Chapter 15 Exercise 1.3, "I've said > who I thought was a fool." > Is the {pu } in { mi pu jinvi } reflecting some kind of sequence of tenses > as the "thought" in "I thought" is in accordance with "I've said" (in which > case "I"'s thinking of "who" as "a fool" may either be continuing or have > stopped)? Or is it simply implying { mi pu jinvi gi'enai ca jinvi ledu'u > ...}? All {pu} does there is say that the opinion was held at some point before some other unspecified reference point. The three most obvious reference points available without more context are: (1) the time of the current utterance, (2) the unstated time of the reported {ba'o cusku}, and (3) the unstated time of the not even mentioned but implied {ca'o cusku}. The translator made the assumption that {ba'o cusku} has present tense ("I've said" rather than "I had said" or "I will have said"), so (1) and (2) turn out to be the same time, and that's probably the best bet, so the time of the opinion would agree with the time of the {ca'o cusku}, which is in the past of the time of (1) and (2). The speaker doesn't say anything about whether they still think the person they said they thought was a fool is a fool or not. Notice that the tense of {bebna} is also not provided, so there are even more theoretical possibilities: "I had/have/will have said who I thought was/is/will/would be a fool" and I probably left some out. {pu} is probably just malglico though, it doesn't really add much there, I think. mu'o mi'e xorxes