From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Jun 03 18:49:08 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 03 Jun 2007 18:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Hv1gx-0001nq-JI for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 03 Jun 2007 18:49:08 -0700 Received: from smtp.mail.umich.edu ([141.211.14.82] helo=hellskitchen.mr.itd.umich.edu) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Hv1gu-0001lt-DE for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 03 Jun 2007 18:49:07 -0700 Received: FROM [192.168.123.137] (66-227-151-160.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com [66.227.151.160]) BY hellskitchen.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 46636F51.5B698.29119 ; 3 Jun 2007 21:48:01 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <1180908797.46633cfd69599@ssl0.ovh.net> References: <1180908797.46633cfd69599@ssl0.ovh.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9C777530-ACDE-4369-95A8-81F167CE3482@umich.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alex Martini Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: mp3 files: can you help? Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 21:47:53 -0400 To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 4849 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: alexjm@umich.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Jun 3, 2007, at 6:13 PM, m.kornig@sondal.net wrote: > Hello everybody, > > It's been an exciting moment for me: Thanks to > Hans, Matt and Matt's grilfriend (female voice) > I've heard other people speak Lojban for the > first time. A big thank you to all three of them! > > Please find their 15 recordings enclosed. > > I would like to comment on a few points and ask > for your advice/views: > > (1) The recordings have different bandwidths: > 64kbps (Matt and his girlfriend) and 128kbps (Hans). > Clearly, 64kbps doesn't seem to be sufficient > for speech. Due to this technical problem Matt's > "p" in "pa" is absent and his "c" in "ci" is > very shrill. > > Matt, could you try to record your voices again > using 128kbps? > > (2) I'm surprised (and a bit puzzled) by the variety of > accents. In particular: > > (2a) The length of the vowels are very different. > Compare for instance Hans' "mu" (short) on the > one hand and Matt's "mu" (long) on the other. > Hans' "pa" is relatively short, too. > > Are the lengths of the five principal vowels > in numbers meant to be different? Personally, > I speak all vowels relatively long. But I'm > only a starter and that may be wrong... I'm not an expert, but as far as I know vowel length is not important in Lojban. You can pronounce them as long or short as you like. The only case where it's reccommended to use shorter vowels if if you're adding pronounced vowels that aren't written. For example, if {mlatu} is hard to say, you can stick a very short vowel -- any one that's not already used, such as the {i} in {bit} in American English -- in between {m} and {l}. But that's a special case, and I'd say you should probably learn to speak more mainstream Lojban without the buffer vowels. The normal vowels don't have any particular length requirements. > I would appreciate the views of experienced Lojban speakers > on these points. > > [ li'o ] > > Cheers, Martin I'm going to answer the rest of these together. Watch out, especially as a beginner learning Lojban from English, that you don't use the English vowel pronunciations. In English, what we write as one vowel and call one vowel is very often multiple vowel sounds. (this table assumes you've got a fixed width font, like Courier set) English Lojban long a {ei} long e {i} long o {ou} long u {iu} Grab yourself a sucker (lolipop) -- or a straw or popsicle stick if you'd prefer less sweet. Put it in your mouth, stand in front of a mirror, and pronounce the English "long" vowels. You'll be able to feel and see that your lips and toungue move while you say the vowel. (and another table...) English Lojban Movement long a {ei} tongue moves forward long e {i} tongue rises a little bit long o {ou} lips go together long u {iu} tongue drops; lips go together Now that you've got that figured out -- stop it!! (zo'o) In Lojban, your tongue and lips stay STILL when you pronounce them. Try the same thing again with the sucker and mirror now, and make sure they aren't moving. There is a range of proper vowels, but they are all "pure" vowels -- the kind where your mouth doesn't move when you say them. Hope this helps! mu'o mi'e .aleks.