From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Jun 04 04:09:55 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 04 Jun 2007 04:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HvARd-0008NK-Mi for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 04 Jun 2007 04:09:54 -0700 Received: from mclmx.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.10]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HvARa-0008Im-Pe for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 04 Jun 2007 04:09:53 -0700 Received: from 0015-its-ieg01.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.21] [149.8.64.21]) by mclmx.mail.saic.com id BT-MMP-1513345 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 4 Jun 2007 07:09:33 -0400 Received: from 0015-its-exbh02.us.saic.com ([10.43.229.22]) by 0015-its-ieg01.mail.saic.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.5.66) with SMTP id M2007060407093228215 for ; Mon, 04 Jun 2007 07:09:32 -0400 Received: from 0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com ([10.75.0.188]) by 0015-its-exbh02.us.saic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 4 Jun 2007 07:09:32 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: la melpelkre .e le ci cribe Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 07:09:32 -0400 Message-Id: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7D72@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <925d17560706011206s4d0b455an632bf70a55e3376c@mail.gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] Re: la melpelkre .e le ci cribe Thread-Index: AcekgGHNJKV+vVYmQKKOfEfTKSQbfACE7dZw From: "Turniansky, Michael [UNK]" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Jun 2007 11:09:32.0674 (UTC) FILETIME=[D4151620:01C7A698] X-Spam-Score: 1.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 10 X-Spam-Bar: + X-archive-position: 4854 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners > > > I interpret "x1 is local to x2;x1 is confined to locus x2 within > > range x3" to mean that x1 is an object or event that happens/exists > > only at a specific location. "That rash (x1) is on the arm (x2) (of my > > body (x3))", "The wedding (x1)was in the social hall (x2) (of the > > church (x3))", > > So like {zvati}, but with an additional x3? > Well, partially, not exactly. To me, zvati means that something is at place Y, but doesn't necessarily mean that they are exclusively at place Y (although obviously, with the case of a singular concrete object, that would be true as well). The emphasis on zvati is the X1, the object itself -- lo cinfo cu zvati le vi tcadu .ii -- whereas in diklo the X1 is exclusively confined to the X2 location, which is the emphasis (that is, the location and the exclusive confinement thereto) -- ku'i ra le mivdalmuzga diklo .iinai . Not ethat in the first bridi, lions are elsewhere in the world, not just in this town. The second utterance says that the lions are _confined_ to the zoo. At this moment, they are nowhere else in town. Thus, if I were to ask you if you knew where my library book was, I could use either zvati or diklo, but if the exterminator were to ask you where you have seen mice, he would probably use diklo. (Although if you have seen them all over the house, "zvati le zdani" would be a legitimate answer, but only in the kitchen, then "{pu} diklo le jupku'a" would be more appropriate.) I hope I've made my understanding clear, even though I must of course state that I'm not (as you know) of any official standing in the lojban community. > > "The evacuation (x1) was only of Baltimore (x2)" > > This one would seem to say that the evacuation took place in Baltimore, > rather than that Baltimore was evacuated. > Either way would be a legitimate interpretation. My point was merely that no other city was evacuated, in whole or in part. > > "The event of Goldilocks sleeping (x1) was on the bed (x2)" Hence, > > di'o would be used to describe whatever the object or event that is > > localized to the bridi, a much slipperier (and less useful) concept. > > But do you see any difference between {ko'a zvati ko'e} and > {ko'a diklo ko'e}, or are they near synonyms? See above. Although I would add here that sedi'o is less clunky to use than the fi'o se zvati ;-) > > > Perhaps something like: mi'o ba ganzu tu'a le kumfa di'o le bliku > > (you and I will organize the room, specifically the blocks therein). > > {ne di'o le bliku} if you want to tie the blocks to the room. > > I would rather say something like {mi'o ba ganzu le kumfa .i sa'e go'i > le bliku poi zvati ky.} And here, I would agree with you. I was just trying to find an utterance where "di'o X" could be used in my understanding of the meaning ("localizing exclusively to X within a wider range"), not necessarily saying it was the best way to phrase it. --gejyspa