From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Jun 11 14:11:46 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HxrAu-0006Sh-EC for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:11:45 -0700 Received: from web88007.mail.re2.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.194]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HxrAq-0006SD-5Q for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:11:43 -0700 Received: (qmail 10570 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jun 2007 21:11:30 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=b7Myr4YBtwBXR/YD3Kb0G+FQZVHQ6skKKsq9Qf72kGE+C6+MCkteypzbGPtihYc4CeYugarQWm5bAu4wtGIJUY2UI+pdEuz3rcnodTiyQikQk07H7+C2aHmrbLQpHhMyKvQwF/3UsIK+RzaMxs78MKAIKOVjdx8a5QObInAAlc0=; X-YMail-OSG: w_R4GPYVM1nP3ksAiAudGDT8tn8wX.HhUgZi9fsDaBbXU_DO Received: from [74.123.21.51] by web88007.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:11:29 PDT Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:11:29 -0700 (PDT) From: ANDREW PIEKARSKI Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: se gugde? To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Message-ID: <70575.9119.qm@web88007.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.9 X-Spam-Score-Int: 9 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 4938 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: totus@rogers.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llambías To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 12:23:38 PM Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: se gugde? On 6/10/07, ANDREW PIEKARSKI wrote: > > {x1 is the country of peoples x2 with land/territory > > x3; (people/territory relationship)} > > uh, doesn't it say "of peoples x2"? > peoples has a very specific meaning in english and must not be confused > with people or person, right? > > Agreed! To me, 'peoples' means 'ethnic groups' - which would make > [se gugde] even less appropriate for 'citizen'. And it would make {gugde} quite inappropriate for the general meaning of "country", because many countries are not the country of some specific ethnic group or ethnic groups. I think it's just a bad wording of the definition. x1 is the country, x2 is for the people of that country (basically any citizen, whether they belong to the main ethnic group of the country or not, and whether they live in the country or not), and x3 for the territory. The only question is whether it can refer to any single citizen of the country, or whether it must only refer to the groups of all citizens. (I prefer the former, since it makes things easier, just like {se bangu} can refer to a single person.) For ethnic group there is {natmi}. mu'o mi'e xorxes So to avoid confusion, wouldn't your other suggestion be better - {flalu xabju}? Only, this for me would still mean 'legal resident' (as opposed to, for example, an illegal immigrant). A citizen has more privileges than a legal resident. In particular, he has the right to own a passport. So couldn't citizen be {jaspu xabju}? The complication here is that the citizen who has the right to a passport doesn't necessarily have a passport, and I imagine replacing {jaspu} with the right to have a {jaspu} would be impractical. mu'o mi'e .andrus.