From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Jun 14 19:37:42 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 14 Jun 2007 19:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Hz1h0-00055U-3C for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 14 Jun 2007 19:37:42 -0700 Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.230]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Hz1gw-00055M-Vr for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 14 Jun 2007 19:37:41 -0700 Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id t11so912452wxc for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2007 19:37:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=KswcFAsYeVg7agXgA+pHeQEOwwpwYtaignxoU2ogyc0M25wcL8rjGiQ8NPd9976bugOl4I8jb3bVzL1+eAC52/L/YeELkmWSIbERWffk27hOB8+OBjQZznAnQRcgwEkHfjg3EJYhUfQg08mrqFYskwC7h+L0T7/I5yI8vTfr3Bk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=GP8VAaiNkmQBNvHqxuVypI5T2qiH9mOWJZua6XBm+jFVrnLm0kqfE3IJYf1JFpbUfPwk6qk7y8CZzfmYBmFgsKP8lL+qWHyBDHVeIUVKsgilU1Cnbudta3Z2563otwI60+T3u6T19j6dLq9AcLgL2Qh4yzYzy2DnzSGutDDOP5I= Received: by 10.70.37.12 with SMTP id k12mr3969277wxk.1181875056896; Thu, 14 Jun 2007 19:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.65.19 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Jun 2007 19:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 19:37:36 -0700 From: "David Cortesi" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] the hills of Andilly which are delightful MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_22419_24426534.1181875056862" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 4951 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: davecortesi@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_22419_24426534.1181875056862 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I posed a translation challenge of sorts, a quote from {la ja.jak.ruso}, an= d Michael Turniansky (herinafter M. T.) almost immediately provided a complete translation. I couldn't have come close that doing that (as will become evident shortly) but hope to learn by reading & parsing Michael's. This may sometimes seem as if I am ungratefully second-guessing a guy who was trying to be helpful. Not so! I am awed & grateful! I should have mentioned, the English translation is mostly taken from the Project Gutenberg text, (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/3913) which seems t= o be anonymous. A different translation by W.C. Mallory is at ( http://philosophy.eserver.org/rousseau-confessions.txt). To find the passag= e under examination, search either version for "Andilly." The first sentence was pretty easy; here's the French, English, and Lojban by M. T. J'ai dit qu'il y avoit loin de l'Hermitage =E0 Eaubonne; > I have said it is far from The Hermitage to Eaubonne; > mi pu cusku sedu'u la ermitaj darno la obon > It was {sedu'u}, the-fact-of, I didn't know. This is a useful template: "I said that x-is-y" =3D=3D> {mi pu cusku sedu'u } (I also didn't have {darno}; I had searched the gismu list for "distance" and found nothing useful. I shoulda searched on "distan*") The second sentence shows how quickly a simple thought raises difficulties. je passois par les coteaux d'Andilly qui sont charmans. > I went by the hills of Andilly, which are delightful; .i mi pu klama fo loi me la andilis cmana noi kukte be lo ka viska > I could work out {mi pu klama fo...} easily, but I stuck first on "the hills of Andilly" or, the more common English equivalent, "the Andilly hills" -- as in "the Malvern hills," "the Rocky mountains," "the Senate Office building," "the Sears Tower." This is another useful template: how t= o make a label that melds a name and a predicate. M. T. alerts me to {me..me'u}. The ref.gram. (ch. 5) gives the example of {me lai kraisler. karce}. Given that, possibly the above should say, not {fo loi me la andilis cmana} "via the-mass-really the-called-Andilis-hill" but {fo me lai andilis cmana} "via the-mass-called-Andilis hill" Well it certainly wouldn't need two masses, I'm just saying the mass-called-Andilis might be preferable, getting the mass into the designation, better matching the English "Andillis hillS" (the French is also plural, "les couteaux") ANYway, "which are delightful" is a perfect example of an incidental relative clause, which I find in ref.gram. ch. 8. Regarding M. T.'s {noi kukte be lo ka viska}, "which are pleasing/delightful {be}? the-really property-of vision" I'm not clear on this construct. First I think Michael might well have stopped with {noi kukte} "which are pleasing" because that is just what the original does. Rousseau doesn't say why he finds the hills charmant, they might smell good, or be pleasantly shady... So if I could translate at all I think I would have stopped with {fo me lai Andilis cmane noi kukte}. But given Michael wanted to specify they were pleasing to view, I notice that {kukte} actually takes x2 as the sense being pleased. So I don't get why {be} is needed to attach the qualifier... Would this be just as valid? .i mi pu klama fo me lai andilis cmana noi kukte zu'o viska ...which are pleasing to the activity of seeing? ------=_Part_22419_24426534.1181875056862 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I posed a translation challenge of sorts, a quote from {la ja.jak.ruso}, an= d Michael  Turniansky (herinafter M. T.) almost immediately provided a= complete translation. I couldn't have come close that doing that (as w= ill become evident shortly) but hope to learn by reading & parsing Mich= ael's. This may sometimes seem as if I am ungratefully second-guessing = a guy who was trying to be helpful. Not so!  I am awed & grateful!

I should have mentioned, the English translation is mostly taken fr= om the Project Gutenberg text, (http:/= /philosophy.eserver.org/rousseau-confessions.txt). To find the passage under examination, search either version for "Andilly."
The first sentence was pretty easy; here's the French, English, a= nd Lojban by M. T.

J'ai dit qu'il y avoit loin de l'Hermitage =E0 Eaubonne;
 &= nbsp;  I have said it is far from The Hermitage to Eaubonne;
=          mi pu cusku sedu'u la = ermitaj darno la obon

It was {sedu'u}, the-fact-of, I didn't know. This is a useful templ= ate: "I said that x-is-y" =3D=3D> {mi pu cusku sedu'u <= bridi>}

(I also didn't have {darno}; I had searched the gismu= list for "distance" and found nothing useful. I shoulda searched= on "distan*")

The second sentence shows how quickly a simple thought raises diffi= culties.

je passois par les coteaux d'Andilly qui sont charmans.
=     I went by the hills of Andilly, which are delightful;
   = ;   .i mi pu klama fo loi me la andilis cmana  noi kukte be = lo ka viska
 
I could work out  {mi pu klama fo...} easily, but I stuck first = on "the hills of Andilly" or,  the more common English equiv= alent, "the Andilly hills" -- as in "the Malvern hills,"= ; "the Rocky mountains," "the Senate Office building," = "the Sears Tower." This is another useful template: how to make a= label that melds a name and a predicate. M. T. alerts me to {me..me'u}= . The=20 ref.gram. (ch. 5) gives the example of {me lai kraisler. karce}. Given that= , possibly the above should say, not

{fo loi me la andilis cmana} &q= uot;via the-mass-really the-called-Andilis-hill"

but

{fo me lai andilis cmana} "via the-mass-called-Andilis hill"
<= br>Well it certainly wouldn't need two masses, I'm just saying the = mass-called-Andilis might be preferable, getting the mass into the designat= ion, better matching the English "Andillis hillS" (the French is = also plural, "les couteaux")

ANYway, "which are delightful" is a perfect example of an= incidental relative clause, which I find in ref.gram. ch. 8. Regarding M. = T.'s {noi kukte be lo ka viska}, "which are pleasing/delightful {b= e}? the-really property-of vision" I'm not clear on this construct= .

First I think Michael might well have stopped with {noi kukte} &quo= t;which are pleasing" because that is just what the original does. Rou= sseau doesn't say why he finds the hills charmant, they might smell goo= d, or be pleasantly shady... So if I could translate at all I think I would= have stopped with {fo me lai Andilis cmane noi kukte}.=20

But given Michael wanted to specify they were pleasing to view, I n= otice that {kukte} actually takes x2 as the sense being pleased. So I don&#= 39;t get why {be} is needed to attach the qualifier... Would this be just a= s valid?

 &nb= sp;  .i mi pu klama fo me lai andilis cmana  noi kukte zu'o v= iska

...which are pleasing to the activity of seeing?
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