From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Jun 18 05:55:18 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 18 Jun 2007 05:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1I0GlK-0005pc-9Z for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 05:55:18 -0700 Received: from mclmx.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.10]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1I0GlH-0005pE-4a for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 05:55:17 -0700 Received: from 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.21] [149.8.64.21]) by mclmx.mail.saic.com id BT-MMP-135971 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:54:56 -0400 Received: from 0015-its-exbh02.us.saic.com ([10.43.229.22]) by 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.5.66) with SMTP id M2007061808545604769 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:54:56 -0400 Received: from 0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com ([10.75.0.188]) by 0015-its-exbh02.us.saic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:54:56 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C7B1A7.DF349FFA" Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: lujvo Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:54:56 -0400 Message-Id: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7DCB@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <2f91285f0706180349l733ac112h77580bb64ce5c3a9@mail.gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] lujvo Thread-Index: AcexmlxvNqQaa8kNSxWZG3kPDA1OMAADMl9g From: "Turniansky, Michael [UNK]" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jun 2007 12:54:56.0510 (UTC) FILETIME=[DF2A61E0:01C7B1A7] X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5008 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7B1A7.DF349FFA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes it could be. But remember, (and this was always a hard concept for me to grasp) that unlike tanru, a "lujvo, like other brivla, have a fixed place structure and a single meaning, encapsulating a commonly-used tanru into a lujvo relieves the listener of the burden of creative understanding" (12.1, second paragraph after example 1.2). In other words, once something is in a lujvo, it has only one meaning. That meaning is determined by the lujvo creator. So, you COULD have meant it to mean a "dog that houses fleas", but since the example we are creating is specifically not intended to convey that, we have already constrained what the relationship between the parts will be, and hence the place structure. =20 --gejyspa =20 ________________________________ From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of Vid Sintef Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 6:49 AM To: lojban-beginners Subject: [lojban-beginners] lujvo =20 Reference Grammar Ch.12, Sect.3: In fact, the relationship will almost always be so close that the predicate expressing r will be either the seltau or the tertau predicate itself. This should come as no surprise, given that a word like ``zdani'' in Lojban is a predicate. Predicates express relations; so when you're looking for a relation to tie together ``le zdani'' and ``le gerku'', the most obvious relation to pick is the very relation named by the tertau, ``zdani'': the relation between a home and its dweller. As a result, the object which fills the first place of ``gerku'' (the dog) also fills the second place of ``zdani'' (the house-dweller).=20 I don't understand the last part. Why not the first place of "zdani" (the house)? The text previously validates such one of the possible meanings of the veljvo (gerku zdani) as " dogs which are also houses (e.g. houses for fleas)", in which the object filling the first place of "gerku" also fills the first place of "zdani". mu'o mi'e vid ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7B1A7.DF349FFA Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

  Yes it could be.  But = remember, (and this was always a hard concept for me to grasp) that unlike tanru, a = "lujvo, like other brivla, have a fixed place structure and a single meaning, encapsulating a commonly-used tanru into a lujvo relieves the listener = of the burden of creative understanding" (12.1, second paragraph after = example 1.2).  In other words, once something is in a lujvo, it has only = one meaning.  That meaning is determined by the lujvo creator.  So, you COULD = have meant it to mean a "dog that houses fleas", but since the example we = are creating is specifically not intended to convey that, we have already = constrained what the relationship between the parts will be, and hence the place = structure.

 

      =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;         --gejyspa

 

From: = lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of Vid Sintef
Sent: Monday, June 18, = 2007 6:49 AM
To: lojban-beginners
Subject: = [lojban-beginners] lujvo

 

Reference Grammar Ch.12, Sect.3:
In fact, the relationship will almost always be so close that the = predicate expressing r will be either the seltau or the tertau predicate itself. = This should come as no surprise, given that a word like ``zdani'' in Lojban = is a predicate. Predicates express relations; so when you're looking for a = relation to tie together ``le zdani'' and ``le gerku'', the most obvious relation = to pick is the very relation named by the tertau, ``zdani'': the relation = between a home and its dweller. As a result, the object which fills the first = place of ``gerku'' (the dog) also fills the second place of ``zdani'' (the house-dweller).

I don't understand the last part. Why not the first place of = "zdani" (the house)? The text previously validates such one of the possible = meanings of the veljvo (gerku zdani) as " dogs which are also houses (e.g. = houses for fleas)", in which the object filling the first place of = "gerku" also fills the first place of "zdani".

mu'o mi'e vid

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