From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Jun 18 07:26:10 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 18 Jun 2007 07:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1I0IBE-0000No-DG for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 07:26:09 -0700 Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.249]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1I0IB6-0000Nf-Hj for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 07:26:06 -0700 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b21so398098ana for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 07:25:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=QCSA+z0v7FtQGVic2ewktCJkMrM2SjSfhKpL3lvwVElPhdFhXdIfQPZxPhsvsBbRRqlAm8VJ1dezeCKwnbNa1tAixqcEVc9aA0nEdW0sTOqiABmoyrlEVbYZYV9AIh6TCy2fBNYP8bCc0u7NNwWDm6vfCwB4YxFyz9AS3NNt73s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=mGdb900drQjIEFVC8XlnJWPbdsoYt4/Utcm+Q0XILJpBQYWjWy+3NEz0lj1SrxFvCKaJHKyUosW+e1+7byPP1mv2jq93QpFODAWT/fb79xJHYOd5jFfZOX01wHFDuRTRJTmUnftxh5etYwy+/qBB5YBcYVhidG1LG0uUXgaawtw= Received: by 10.100.177.16 with SMTP id z16mr3496723ane.1182176753795; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 07:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.14 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 07:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2f91285f0706180725i419fe29fi415a15c825e2da07@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 15:25:53 +0100 From: "Vid Sintef" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: lujvo In-Reply-To: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7DCB@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_19710_9080198.1182176753754" References: <2f91285f0706180349l733ac112h77580bb64ce5c3a9@mail.gmail.com> <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7DCB@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5012 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: picos.picos@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_19710_9080198.1182176753754 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 6/18/07, Turniansky, Michael [UNK] wrote: > > [...] unlike tanru, a "lujvo, like other brivla, have a fixed place > structure and a single meaning, encapsulating a commonly-used tanru into a > lujvo relieves the listener of the burden of creative understanding" (12.1, > second paragraph after example 1.2). In other words, once something is in > a lujvo, it has only one meaning. That meaning is determined by the lujvo > creator. So, you COULD have meant it to mean a "dog that houses fleas", but > since the example we are creating is specifically not intended to convey > that, we have already constrained what the relationship between the parts > will be, and hence the place structure. > What is puzzling me is the part "As a result...". What result? It's saying as a matter of course that, if there's no particular purpose set by the creator, the object which fills the first place of "gerku" automatically fills the second, not first, place of "zdani". That's odd. What overlaps at the x1 of the combination "gerku" & "zdani" in the most unaffected/natural way (prior to the creator's intention to specify/determine the place structure as that which is of the most useful/common) should really be the x1 of "gerku" & the x1 of "zdani", shouldn't it? --vid ------=_Part_19710_9080198.1182176753754 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 6/18/07, Turniansky, Michael [UNK] <MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com> wrote:

[...] unlike tanru, a "lujvo, like other brivla, have a fixed place structure and a single meaning, encapsulating a commonly-used tanru into a lujvo relieves the listener of the burden of creative understanding" (12.1, second paragraph after example 1.2).  In other words, once something is in a lujvo, it has only one meaning.  That meaning is determined by the lujvo creator.  So, you COULD have meant it to mean a "dog that houses fleas", but since the example we are creating is specifically not intended to convey that, we have already constrained what the relationship between the parts will be, and hence the place structure.


What is puzzling me is the part "As a result...". What result? It's saying as a matter of course that, if there's no particular purpose set by the creator, the object which fills the first place of "gerku" automatically fills the second, not first, place of "zdani". That's odd. What overlaps at the x1 of the combination "gerku" & "zdani" in the most unaffected/natural way (prior to the creator's intention to specify/determine the place structure as that which is of the most useful/common) should really be the x1 of "gerku" & the x1 of "zdani", shouldn't it?

   --vid
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