From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Jun 18 18:32:44 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 18 Jun 2007 18:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1I0SaK-0002r1-3v for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 18:32:44 -0700 Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.248]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1I0SaH-0002qu-Me for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 18:32:43 -0700 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b21so444060ana for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 18:32:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XBi/XqYs5kRdGwFwH9HVQqpjPpBfAAeJIooY5EqwrQj9rSRy1bhstSK/XEaI9LOGrurSyMKqz3oidyV8w0z5jrNS9IQvga6bE8tS2LyaBLmSrqAcCY63sa+ZIvh+U+e3+GzYjwPwdR54VuwZaQbgsRlNFSTQWNZ0L5S5d4G1ZLI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ew/hVxvXb6wCeg/VcYRZNiqNd384Ns/kfx+vzXwztDHvrDSb19VNEmfi4t5C+z5o7ZqjsqOHRHUScs3n+7Sl6HvfjtW93Ri2uGpLB/Hr+mbT7Ps6ep6OswUeC9zZMe2powKMfBblF94suNIajZsGkAoKz0eYK2Zc2CyEo2PmdOg= Received: by 10.100.41.8 with SMTP id o8mr36673ano.1182216759806; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 18:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.42.17 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 18:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560706181832u7135adefp6d4d2ef54f7f33a6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 22:32:39 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: consonant doubling? In-Reply-To: <2f91285f0706181750p455da9a5x88535a22db2dd8a5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1182179984.4676a290aa1b5@ssl0.ovh.net> <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7DCE@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> <925d17560706180835w6b83c04fl2a2b6eb61f45c3ce@mail.gmail.com> <1182187693.4676c0add509b@ssl0.ovh.net> <2f91285f0706181331k6fcdc0d2vd969ceba51b7aad7@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560706181340y5b36de4en3bcded6701b05ef6@mail.gmail.com> <2f91285f0706181750p455da9a5x88535a22db2dd8a5@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5045 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 6/18/07, Vid Sintef wrote: > > I meant Esperanto's stronger adhesion to the Romance languages in various > aspects. People whose native tongue is one of the Romances would find > Esperanto easy to learn more than Thai or Arabic speakers would. That's certainly true. > And I think > that is an indication of the alienative nature of Esperanto, while being > called an international auxiliary language; its internationality and > auxiliariness, on the linguistic level, are actually limited. That's debatable, but not because its phonology is more complicated than Lojban's, as they are quite similar. > Particularly the orthography of Esperanto can be more outlandish than that > of Lojban. Depends what you mean by outlandish. It is actually very similar to Lojban's: a, b, d, e, f, g, i, k, l, m, n ,o, p, r, s, t, u, v and z are identical. Esperanto c is Lojban's ts Esperanto cx is Lojban's tc Esperanto gx is Lojban's dj Esperanto h is Lojban's apostrophe Esperanto hx is Lojban's x Esperanto j is Lojban's i in diphthongs Esperanto jx is Lojban's j Esperanto sx is Lojban's c Esperanto ux is Lojban's u in diphthongs (The x represents a circumflex on the consonants, or a breve on u.) Not really very outlandish. >And while presumably few people would have difficulty in typing > in Lojban, many would find it awkward to do the same task in Esperanto for > the first time (the character set of Esperanto is far less universal than > that of Lojban). Yes, typing some of the characters can be complicated (that's why the x convention is used), but that doesn't really have anything to do with the phonology. > If the phonologies of Esperanto and Lojban look alike, that's not > necessarily because the designers of one side wanted to copy the other's, > but rather because when you simplify a phonology it does gain more > generality; the more things get simplified for the same purpose, the more > they become alike. The phonology that they share is not really that simple. There are too many fricatives, for example. Not to mention consonant clusters, which both have in abundance. > I'm not completely familiar with Esperanto either, but I'm convinced that > Lojban is linguistically more open than Esperanto can ever be. Phonologically, they are very similar. In other aspects, such as grammar and vocabulary, they are quite different. "Linguistically open", I don't know. mu'o mi'e xorxes