From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Jun 21 09:17:14 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 21 Jun 2007 09:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I1PLL-0003Jm-ID for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 09:17:14 -0700 Received: from mclmx2.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.32] ident=[U2FsdGVkX18Vr5gVbhHIDLZaU/R5J3Wo9P4XeUqEXnM=]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I1PLC-0003JW-T5 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 09:17:09 -0700 Received: from 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.21] [149.8.64.21]) by mclmx2.mail.saic.com id BT-MMP-751830 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:16:51 -0400 Received: from 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com ([10.43.229.18]) by 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.5.66) with SMTP id M2007062112165106151 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:16:51 -0400 Received: from 0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com ([10.75.0.188]) by 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:16:51 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Differently-shaped vocal equipment (was: Re: Re: lojban-beginners Digest V6 #97) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:16:50 -0400 Message-Id: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7DF9@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <1182440455.467a9c07472ff@ssl0.ovh.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] Re: Differently-shaped vocal equipment (was: Re: Re: lojban-beginners Digest V6 #97) Thread-Index: Ace0GuYHxw89ZiqUSLizIP8ND1KmBQAAxYcw From: "Turniansky, Michael [UNK]" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jun 2007 16:16:51.0349 (UTC) FILETIME=[93695C50:01C7B41F] X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5098 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners The problem is not just one of "habit and training". The problem is that the brain actually loses the ability to distinguish between phonemes that are not consequential in their language. So, while someone can be trained mechanically how to produce a particular phoneme (the same way deaf are in oral schools), if they cannot hear the difference, they don't get the proper self-feedback to see if they are producing it correctly. This occurs because synaptic connections are pruned in infancy during the language acquiring process (presumably because less connections means faster processing time, necessary for a realtime language processing). So for example, tests with PET scans of native Japanese speakers vs. German and English speakers have shown that hearing of the sounds [l] and [r] are processed in two different parts of German and English speakers' brains, but only in a single place in a Japanese speaker's brains. So it becomes much harder for them to tell the difference. See for example, this article: http://www.indiana.edu/~hlw/PhonProcess/learning.html Thus, it behooves lojban to be "forgiving" in their phonemic space, although there are still (as xorxes points out), places where distinctions are made in lojban that might be difficult for certain speakers of other languages to produce or hear. --gejyspa -----Original Message----- From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of m.kornig@sondal.net Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 11:41 AM To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Differently-shaped vocal equipment (was: Re: Re: lojban-beginners Digest V6 #97) Selon Arnt Richard Johansen : > You are right that the pronunciation ranges are there to help p�eople with > different linguistic backgrounds, but race does not enter into the picture. > Racial differences in vocal tract shape and size are dwarfed in comparison to > individual differences. ( > http://www.ohiolink.edu/etd/view.cgi?acc_num=ohiou1050668842 ) > > Except for abnormal conditions such as a cleft palate, everyone is equally > capable, physically, of producing any speech sound. Yes, I agree. It's mostly a question of habit and training. I work as a language teacher in France, where I teach both English and German. You may know that the letter H is not pronounced in French. You pronounce it however in most cases at the beginning of a word both in English and in German. After a bit of training most of my students are able to pronounce words like "heat", "high" and "hand" correctly (and thus make clear that they don't mean "eat", "I" or "and"). I have noticed however that, even after hours of thorough training, most of my students still have difficulties in HEARING the difference between "heat" and "eat", "hi" and "eye", or "hand" and "and". It seems that they are not used to hearing the H at the beginning of a word (or a sentence) and just "don't pay attention" to it. So it seems to me that listening habits are more difficult to change than pronounciation habits. And I do believe that both French and English have the same ears... Martin