From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Jun 21 10:15:42 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I1QFx-0004Uo-NT for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:15:42 -0700 Received: from 25.mail-out.ovh.net ([213.186.37.103]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I1QFt-0004Ug-Gd for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:15:41 -0700 Received: (qmail 26408 invoked by uid 503); 21 Jun 2007 17:15:56 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 21 Jun 2007 17:15:56 -0000 Received: from gw2.ovh.net (HELO mail14.ha.ovh.net) (213.251.189.202) by 25.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 21 Jun 2007 17:15:56 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 21 Jun 2007 17:15:32 -0000 Received: from 59.1-225-89.dsl.completel.net (59.1-225-89.dsl.completel.net [89.225.1.59]) by ssl0.ovh.net (IMP) with HTTP for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:15:32 +0200 Message-ID: <1182446132.467ab234786dd@ssl0.ovh.net> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:15:32 +0200 From: m.kornig@sondal.net To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Differently-shaped vocal equipment (was: Re: Re: lojban-beginners Digest V6 #97) References: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7DF9@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7DF9@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.6 X-Originating-IP: 89.225.1.59 X-Spam-Score: 0.3 X-Spam-Score-Int: 3 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5102 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: m.kornig@sondal.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Selon "Turniansky, Michael \\[UNK\\]" : > The problem is not just one of "habit and training". The problem is that > the brain actually loses the ability to distinguish between phonemes that are > not consequential in their language. So, while someone can be trained > mechanically how to produce a particular phoneme (the same way deaf are in > oral schools), if they cannot hear the difference, they don't get the proper > self-feedback to see if they are producing it correctly. This occurs because > synaptic connections are pruned in infancy during the language acquiring > process (presumably because less connections means faster processing time, > necessary for a realtime language processing). So for example, tests with > PET scans of native Japanese speakers vs. German and English speakers have > shown that hearing of the sounds [l] and [r] are processed in two different > parts of German and English speakers' brains, but only in a single place in a > Japanese speaker's brains. So it becomes much harder for them to tell the > difference. See for example, this article: Interesting. This actually is compatible with my observations. The fact that most French native speakers actually do improve their listening skills w.r.t. English texts to some degree after some training (some of them actually manage to overcome the H-difficulty completely, for instance) may indicate that synaptic connections are rebuilt (even with adults) after some weeks of training. Is this possible/plausible? Martin