From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Jun 23 19:01:26 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 23 Jun 2007 19:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I2HPq-0004ar-6O for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 23 Jun 2007 19:01:26 -0700 Received: from phma.optus.nu ([166.82.175.165] helo=ixazon.dynip.com) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I2HPl-0004aa-Bs for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sat, 23 Jun 2007 19:01:25 -0700 Received: from chausie (unknown [192.168.7.4]) by ixazon.dynip.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4440CCEA7E for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2007 22:01:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: More phonology: voiced/unvoiced and fricative/fricative Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 22:01:04 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.5 References: <467D42AA.3090704@online.de> In-Reply-To: <467D42AA.3090704@online.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200706232201.04413.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Spam-Score: 0.2 X-Spam-Score-Int: 2 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5122 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: phma@phma.optus.nu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Saturday 23 June 2007 11:56, Klaus Schmirler wrote: > Now there's a whole bunch of xr words: > > xrabo Arabic > xrani injure > xriso Christian > xruba buckwheat > xruki turkey > xrula flower > xruti return and some with {xr} in the middle: maxri, pixra, juxre, mixre. > They taste best to my German palate when I pronounce them with an > initial ach sound and then just add voicing. And I think one of the > design principles (which admittedly I haven't found, or I'd have cited > it above) was that sounds should be maximally distinct. So does [xR] > count as maximally distinct - if so, I rest my case - or is the uvular > r forbidden in this context? I came up with a tonguetwister {le xruki le ginxre xrixruba xu xrula cu xrani?}. I pronounce {xr} as a single sound, a simultaneous uvular and alveolar trill (i.e. ach-Laut and Spanish r at the same time). {rx} I pronounce as two sounds. Some months ago we came up with some words with long {xr} sequences in them: {rirxrxrone}, the river Hron, and {rirxrxrazdani}, the river Hrazdan. The latter forms a minimal pair with {rirxyxrazdani}. In {rxrxr}, I pronounce the first /r/ as an alveolar trill, the second as a vocalic alveolar trill, and the third as a trill simultaneous with the second /r/. Pierre