From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Jun 25 21:19:19 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I32WM-00052Z-TN for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:19:19 -0700 Received: from dsl081-066-183.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net ([64.81.66.183] helo=pinfu.digitalkingdom.org ident=Debian-exim) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I32WK-00050O-Jc for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:19:18 -0700 Received: from mclmx.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.10]) by pinfu.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1I2n8Z-0006w6-5X for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 25 Jun 2007 04:53:43 -0700 Received: from 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.21] [149.8.64.21]) by mclmx.mail.saic.com id BT-MMP-1017926 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 25 Jun 2007 07:40:31 -0400 Received: from 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com ([10.43.229.18]) by 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.5.66) with SMTP id M2007062507403105482 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2007 07:40:31 -0400 Received: from 0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com ([10.75.0.188]) by 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 25 Jun 2007 07:40:31 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: lojban-beginners Digest V6 #110 Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 07:40:30 -0400 Message-Id: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7E02@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <200706222006.QAA09843@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] Re: lojban-beginners Digest V6 #110 Thread-Index: Ace1CRzN4kk/nt7pQTCTRYwIbyettgCFDnWg From: "Turniansky, Michael [UNK]" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jun 2007 11:40:31.0296 (UTC) FILETIME=[A2950C00:01C7B71D] X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5138 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Well, here are some more citations: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WNP-4CB650S-3 &_user=5099374&_coverDate=07%2F31%2F2004&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sor t=d&view=c&_acct=C000066306&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=5099374&md5 =bd9ffddf8249459f449c439a7790fe9f (fig. 2 is especially telling) And two lighter articles: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0008A2EF-23D7-1D2A-97CA809EC5 88EEDF&catID=2 http://www.myhealthsense.com/F020910_bilingualism.html --gejyspa -----Original Message----- From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of der Mouse Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 3:46 PM To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: lojban-beginners Digest V6 #110 >> The problem is not just one of "habit and training". The problem is >> that the brain actually loses the ability to distinguish between >> phonemes that are not consequential in their language. Surely this is not so much totally losing that ability as it is just losing the ability to make linguistically important parsing decisions based on it without conscious attention? Otherwise I'm a very odd person. For example, the difference between French "joue" (cheek) and "jus" (juice) is a property of the vowel, one that is not semantically relevant in the only language I grew up with (English). But, as with many other sonic differences that are not significant in English, I can hear this difference (though I have trouble perceiving it in connected speech unless I am specifically listening for it.) I'm also not much good at producing it, but, again, I can if I consciously make a point of it. >> tests with PET scans of native Japanese speakers vs. German and >> English speakers have shown that hearing of the sounds [l] and [r] >> are processed in two different parts of German and English speakers' >> brains, but only in a single place in a Japanese speaker's brains. I hadn't heard that; it's very interesting. Do you have a citation? I'd like to learn more - that kind of stuff fascinates me. > [...] may indicate that synaptic connections are rebuilt (even with > adults) after some weeks of training. Is this possible/plausible? The plasticity of the human brain/mind is often far underrated. :) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B