From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Jul 19 07:04:48 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 19 Jul 2007 07:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IBWcZ-0003jx-7E for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 07:04:48 -0700 Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.240]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IBWcW-0003jq-Do for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 07:04:46 -0700 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b21so123021ana for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 07:04:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UKuOS/qlwImQZUX2/Hau+uK1+PUckFG0Vw4SB1Sm2GQSQOXxUBdVncyMeZYR6ywRZBGBf2Q6PkbLuvPRcT2GIsJcFIQNjlB0o/pLasUSP+yRr1ik+/ys4aBPR5I5YhZJ9LmNVMfzW0j95M6VF4mXoJuHKmIIIv5Tu4AT0Rg5w8w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=CUUABklXoxE25LBMYKlH/Lqm72UOrv3TS9D4acKUtByAZa73/81AnCBjYQbjNSteAoVYD2j61Le/9iuZkEwzujgrNOLobUwJ4JBh93qT5OX/I03cfqS/X3N3nf772Yy4n5Wa2ZCn4V61E5FoKNcZh46M2A7Yb/mxk5lEKtAzZXA= Received: by 10.100.3.20 with SMTP id 20mr1557171anc.1184853882797; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 07:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.42.17 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 07:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560707190704m223e9f13ua2ae08a7d2822fd2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:04:42 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: double letters In-Reply-To: <200707190003.58061.phma@phma.optus.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <200707131845.34291.phma@phma.optus.nu> <200707170855.22834.phma@phma.optus.nu> <925d17560707170709s80c5531x225e24070ebc8182@mail.gmail.com> <200707190003.58061.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5241 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 7/19/07, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > Words with arbitrarily long or repetitive vowel or consonant sequences could > be useful as ideophones or onomatopoeias. Yes, but it's better if that is achieved within the phonotactic constraints of the core words of the language. Words that violate some other constraints could also be useful as ideophones or onomatopoeias and yet we don't allow them. > For instance, {tctcitci} could mean "it rattles". And {bzbzuzu} could mean "it buzzes", but it doesn't fit the phonotactic constraints, so we have to think of something else that does. {tctcitci} would be no different. For example {trititi} could also mean "it rattles" and it fits comfortably within the core phonotactics. > There's also a place in Tahiti called Faaa. It's actually > Faa'a, but the apostrophe stands for a glottal stop, which cannot occur > inside a Lojban word, so it would have to be {faaas} or the like. I think a word internal glottal stop should be lojbanized as an apostrophe in any case, because in some sense {.} and {'} can be considered as allophones in Lojban, with complementary distributions: their function is the same, they separate two vowels, one in word boundaries and the other word internally. Faa'a could be {faa'as} if aa is allowed, else {fa'a'as} or {faia'as} or {faua'as}. {aa} does not occur in Spanish words, except in some names of Arabic origin such as "Saa" or "Saavedra", but almost all other vowel-vowel pairs do occur in Spanish. But the important point is not whether they occur in Spanish or Tahitian or any other language. The issue is that they don't occur in Lojban core words, and so allowing them in non-core words is an extension of the phonotactics. The only reason Lojban has the apostrophe phoneme is to avoid having vowel-vowel pairs, so it seems odd to let them in again through the window of fu'ivla and cmevla. If vowel-vowel pairs not in diphthongs had been acceptable for Lojban, we wouldn't have the apostrophe to begin with (as in Loglan). mu'o mi'e xorxes