From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Aug 07 17:14:28 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 07 Aug 2007 17:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IIZBy-0006jK-Dd for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 17:14:27 -0700 Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.229]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IIZBu-0006jD-FB for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 17:14:25 -0700 Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so1541601wxd for ; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 17:14:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=DH27agzBH8swY06qbU3eZhqbqhD+2hfn+NW/6b06NYG/QxcPrlN8I3d78mHs/bOEhZxoPqyoF8b1gg26PJnxcecOTBWmVdARJ+nxR9hSB0fAPGcNSY/+TYwYfy/J/jDhSEN0KpPVc3ERrzii87GR1aGQWMURdvyl49j/q7XVF/A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=kthr+JY6Daqg8Mfg1KuPYyh/jGRwnYWc6dBjNibuj9BPDJMUKuYn2xivPQQcoMI/x4DDT4Gcye5EATrVeiPl64bewdolPJxZPe0tstDsgu7LtKujVFYBvHif3BzwnvObD5N3Toj5hQQKlZULzwpjeepKnwNKPKtp/j+A0TzRFh0= Received: by 10.70.116.1 with SMTP id o1mr12598965wxc.1186532060310; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 17:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.38.7 with HTTP; Tue, 7 Aug 2007 17:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2f91285f0708071714p60375c62lc87796e5b8123963@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 01:14:20 +0100 From: "Vid Sintef" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: The Prophet In-Reply-To: <925d17560708071407p56b4f34ao8c64f283ffc138eb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0708061616s75cbc972p934abc12312313ef@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560708070920h67d9941aq9e4dff05db2771e5@mail.gmail.com> <2f91285f0708071041q9a3d267jfeeb3d1d4f78f43e@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560708071059r576aa4e0oc3e074389458d3ac@mail.gmail.com> <2f91285f0708071325m26fc5554n471a11dfe9b30ab2@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560708071407p56b4f34ao8c64f283ffc138eb@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5311 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: picos.picos@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 8/7/07, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 8/7/07, Vid Sintef wrote: > > What about the interdefining relation between the NUs and ZAhOs? > > Such as? The Reference Grammmar says in Chapter 11.12: "The specific cmavo of NU and of ZAhO are mutually interdefining; the ZAhO contours were chosen to fit the needs of the NU event types and vice versa." > the difference between male and female is not unimportant, > but we don't need a different gadri for {lo mamta} and for {lo patfu}, > because the sex difference is already contained in the meanings of > {mamta} and {patfu}. We could have grammatical gender marked in the > gadri in addition, like many languages do, but we don't. I see your point. > I'm not saying the distinction between the four NU cmavo is unimportant. > What I'm saying is that the choice of cmavo (almost?) never adds anything > to the meaning that the sub-bridi already has by itself. > [...] > Do za'i/pu'u/zu'o/mu'e ever add anything not already present in the > meaning of the bridi that they transform? I will try to examine that. Let's compare these: mi pensi le nu xanka mi pensi le za'i xanka While the former is comprehensive, embracing the whole circumstance in which the cause of nervousness and the experiencer are involved, the latter is focusing on the stat in which one is nervous. Say it is the case of a person who is going to give some lecture for the first time in front of many people, then the distinction between {nu} and {za'i} may be worthy of attention: {mi pensi le nu xanka} says that I'm thinking/worrying about the overall happening of such an event in which I get and keep being nervous during the lecture (therefore I must brace myself up in order not to get nervous in the first place); {mi pensi le za'i xanka}, on the other hand, says that I'm worrying particularly about the state in which I am (will be) nervous, implying that I know I won't be able to avoid such a state and that I'm rather fearful of making a gaffe during the lecture because of such a state (therefore I will have to talk carefully while being nervous). The former may still possibly convey the latter's connotation, but, because it (nu) is broader in sense, the reader is likely to miss such subtleties. There if you replace the {nu} with {za'i}, the reader's attention will be challenged. This is how I see the {nu} and {za'i} for now. mu'o mi'e vid