From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Aug 13 05:35:40 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 13 Aug 2007 05:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IKZ8u-0002G7-Bt for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 05:35:34 -0700 Received: from phma.optus.nu ([166.82.175.165] helo=ixazon.dynip.com) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IKZ8c-0002FW-A7 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 05:35:21 -0700 Received: from chausie (unknown [192.168.7.4]) by ixazon.dynip.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8ABBCEA8D for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 08:35:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: le vinji vs lo vinji Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 08:35:05 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.5 References: <2f91285f0708130410g245818a8tc6038a3c7254a822@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2f91285f0708130410g245818a8tc6038a3c7254a822@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200708130835.06579.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5359 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: phma@phma.optus.nu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Monday 13 August 2007 07:10, Vid Sintef wrote: > Suppose a lojbanic child has found in a theme park a ride which looks > like an airplane but which doesn't really fly. He wants to ride it. > Now how should he call this object: {le vinji} as a truthful lojbanist > who distinguishes things that are mental from things that are actual, > or {lo vinji} as a child who often spends his time in a world of > fantasy and is likely to be ignorant of such lies supplied by adults? > In other words, will lojbanic children, if any, have to be trained in > telling {le} from {lo}? Will the plate next to that toy ride, written > for children, in a lojbanistan, have to be saying {le vinji} or {lo > vinji}? The plate says {le vinji}. There are two distinctions between {le} and {lo}: lo broda really is a broda (whether or not it really exists, so that we can talk about unicorns and odd perfect numbers), and le broda is a particular thing (or non-thing) that the speaker has in mind (but, unlike English, does not necessarily assume that the listener can figure out which the speaker has in mind). What the child says depends on whether he has figured out the distinctions. Pierre