From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Aug 16 12:51:48 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1ILlNi-0008Sv-9N for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:51:47 -0700 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.185]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1ILlNW-0008SB-1o for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:51:44 -0700 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 4so184298nfv for ; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:51:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QNCysct6oyK2SZc1IUutWjeAKQCw5EWAAjVxgaZ4P0bVzykRAEHIFjT9BBDt8IcnR1lL+5e7Frz/PHgo1lJNwpdHQDee9d5e7erb00UJrX//G4YQD8ifx43SxH/WOKiC1rL0DMFRSJUZFj6Y41dfXaNw1F4qVvN0CTNGOVQSl5M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hK3942cCVPiUeiC6TOTNzF7mKRI5ufMX5kzCQ5mmtxVS89cmpzlNmhzap1uWj+1W2NcQctzgjTn4lvJ7jbLl5Y3SEHnj7gzWw9ozzjd/zRcVTMisEHOqYu7A7F0IB49GOEq6nnIahd/0HDfzprhgJI8fvEI5ifoy2B5TcRhoWB4= Received: by 10.86.70.8 with SMTP id s8mr1511079fga.1187293886283; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.27.19 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560708161251g373948b9w4f93692cc8d97900@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:51:26 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Standards and states In-Reply-To: <46C5298E@webmail.bcpl.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <46C5298E@webmail.bcpl.net> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5376 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 8/16/07, turnip wrote: > >===== Original Message From "Jorge Llambías" ===== > > (That also > >solves the problem that {do'i} is being used to refer to an utterance > >inside a quotation, which is not its normal use.) > > Mama Bear was referring to the utterance of Ben (B) spoken to Papa. > I could have possibly used one of the counting anaphora, but they get > confusing when dealing with nested sumtis. I could have used an assignable > KOhA, but Papa didn't assign the quote a value. So I chose to use "do'i" and > let the hearer, Papa, work it out. That's why I said "not its normal use". Its normal use is to refer to an utterance uttered in the current discourse, not to an utterance that has been quoted in the current discourse. Ben is not a participant in the current discourse. It's not a big deal as far as I'm concerned. I think the cmavo of this series should have been made to refer to the content of the utterances, not to the utterances themselves anyway. In fact, the x1 of jetnu asks for a {lo du'u ...}, or {la'e di'o}, not for a {lo se du'u ...} or {di'o}. > >It's also not very clear to me why a comparison would be a state. I would > have > >said it was an achievement, eventually a process, perhaps it could even be an > >activity, but a state is the last event-type I would classify it as. > > > Okay, if I can remember my rationale from so long ago: "It's okay to hurt > X" is a true statement in a state of "you are being attacked by X". Remove > that state, the utterance is no longer true (for the sake of argument). Being under attack is a state, yes. Attacking, on the other hand, is an activity. I don't know whether {lo nu gunta} would be a state or an activity, since Lojban does not distinguish "attacking" from "being under attack". Another reason not to use event typing. > Similarly, when a state of comparison exists between Papa's patch and Ben's > patches, Ben's statement is true, but not when you are in a state of (for > example), dreaming, or just considered on its own, with no implied comparison > (although Mama's first statement says that is is objectively true without > qualification. But what is a state of comparison? The state that something is in while being compared with something else? {lo nu karbi} has an active agent, even if it is not made explicit, so it is hard to picture it as a state. mu'o mi'e xorxes