From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Sep 17 02:49:43 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 17 Sep 2007 02:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IXDER-0007Ja-OQ for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 02:49:39 -0700 Received: from web27706.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.146.177.240]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IXDEK-0007J9-1Y for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 02:49:27 -0700 Received: (qmail 45623 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Sep 2007 09:49:01 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=duUf53m5qHD42+9h8DrVDs6UlurDVgzM4SkSqTsvD31oP2xywWf79R6WnvhaxZEEu2mLMqJXcjn/O09pqkChpqgmsjyew0qAQgVW44j52+rYi15EC3QOUj80roDvxrdy0+p7wPL3cjoZIkH3DUNNP6k6uR/2NQQecn4iE5Geffc=; X-YMail-OSG: omoMiWsVM1m3iCLMDAnDjMp6Uaa01BTJMphSXOkZtJnzzNo9UfzYZb7NKEt0DPTbx3GNU7VJLc6vPsdoMas2rQgqCrNVtd_eNkkPBg7ftfDuIHqHE_BGGrNpNBQ- Received: from [130.239.156.94] by web27706.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:49:01 GMT Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:49:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Isen hand Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: lei and loi To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Message-ID: <366686.43136.qm@web27706.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5434 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: isenhand@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners << I must admit that I don't quite understand what you mean by "the same as using lu'o".>> Going back to using the books examples. The book talks about grouping things together: lu’o ci lo nanmu cu bevri le pipno lu’o ci lo gurku cu batci mi lu’o le pano ninmu cu cinba mi That I follow, lu’o groups things together “the mass composed of 3 men” or “the mass composed of 3 dogs” or the "mass composed of 10 women". Then the book goes on to say that “lu’o le" and "lu’o lo" are useful concepts even without numbers, and there are shorter ways of saying each when no number comes between them: "lei" and "loi" respectivly That seams to imply to me that you use lie and loi when you have a mass of an unspecified number (“when no number comes between them”). So: loi nanmu cu bevri le pipno fits in with that ”the mass of an unspecified number of men” However the next example doesn’t, : lei pano ninmu cu cinba mi It has a number in it, but didn’t it just say that lei and loi were a shorter way of saying “the mass composed of” when no number comes between? Shouldn’t it be: lei ninmu cu cinba mi otherwise wont lei pano ninmu cu cinba mi be the same thing as: lu’o le pano ninmu cu cinba mi With the added benefit of saving a couple of letters. Or did I misunderstand something? Andrew ----- Original Message ---- From: Alex Martini To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Sent: Friday, 14 September, 2007 3:05:15 PM Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: lei and loi >>> On Thursday 13 September 2007 06:42, Isen hand wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I’m slowly working my way through “lojban for Beginners” and >>> I have a question about lei and loi from page 34. From what I have >>> understood you use lei and loi for groups with out specifying the >>> number. >>> That fits in with the example given of “loi nanmu cu bevri le >>> pipno” but >>> then the next example “lei pano ninmu cu cinba mi” has a number >>> in it. From >>> my understanding it should be “lei ninmu cu cinba mi”. Have I >>> misunderstood? >> >> {lei} and {loi} mark the sumti as a mass. It can have a number in >> it. Suppose >> that Bob and Jim are a surveying team, and call them {le re >> nanmu}. {lei re >> nanmu cu merli le tumla} could mean that Bob worked the total >> station and Jim >> walked around with a prism to the lot corners. But if le re nanmu >> cu merli le >> tumla, either they're both using robots, or Bob hooked a tape at >> one corner, >> pulled it to the other corner, and read it, then Jim hooked a tape >> and read >> it at the other corner. So each by himself measured the land, >> rather than the >> two together doing it. >> >> Pierre > > On Sep 14, 2007, at 3:10 AM, Isen hand wrote: > > Ok, so if you put a number in lei / loi it becomes the same > as using lu’o? I must admit that I don't quite understand what you mean by "the same as using lu'o". {lei} is the same as {lu'o le} and {loi} as {lo'u lo} And if you have a number, {lei # broda} is the same as {lu'o le # broda}. (Broda is just a pro-selbri -- it's just filling in for any selbri here). But {lu'o} isn't an article (a {gadri}) so you can't say {lu'o # broda} as far as I know. The example I remember best is from The Complete Lojban Language (or possibly Lojban for Beginners): {le ci gerku cu batci mi} = The three dogs bite me. {lei ci gerku cu batci mi} = The group of three dogs bites me. In the first case, each dog must bite me for the sentence to be true. In the second, only at least one of the group of three. The difference is that in the first, the dogs are treated individually, and in the second they are treated as a group. Hope that helps a little. mu'o mi'e .aleks. ___________________________________________________________ NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online! http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/