From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Oct 24 09:02:36 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Ikigm-0007aC-6k for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:02:36 -0700 Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.128.184]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Ikigj-0007a2-Rd for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:02:36 -0700 Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 19so386073fkr for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:02:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=tCZ7+UfHoHQvaTlZsB03jEkAcc7g2xlm8718dQ8AlLA=; b=G8LlNNm2dxqYpesDjafS9SgDt1CzGOw6qWn4z6AA+Mz/iERfa3pIDtyuk+4LG6DytR0/ynhWYtfq/oSZg8/5YMg20PmTckNN77IZ0ibE9PLHGJFFX35R7H0G8vbKBu7Szq/b5U5EhMa+HJOGqtO2qa+yREzlAUfFB2/ayZnZnh8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=R0mestGpGnR0Fw5Y+8c2/ofeJNDYPH41eZ5o4NzKgELVd/koJc3nrO7SCX8Oe5xfKTi1LSek9sx9TyBXXIIfQfSuRzprFiokFmwY/r5J/4IfPKFsx58KFMbXiKLZaOsEui3IjA3y/lvjUX5Rj8wE5dvveZKZAxjrlMLv5QSfLpQ= Received: by 10.82.160.19 with SMTP id i19mr1654880bue.1193241743679; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.113.2 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2204fa080710240902n551dd1bfga3308b7bcd652b19@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 12:02:23 -0400 From: "Jared Angell" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: usefulness In-Reply-To: <71550650710240824g5ba8643dre4bc6439806b9e83@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <2204fa080710240614t4b9c184erd7d3acf2ac03ddb5@mail.gmail.com> <2204fa080710240749s63fb9df2s6953fddefe4cefcb@mail.gmail.com> <71550650710240824g5ba8643dre4bc6439806b9e83@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5570 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: angell.jared@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners My understanding was that my friends did have a hard time reading ancient Hebrew as much of the grammar is dissimilair. That is just what I heard from at least half a dozen people, perhaps it is not much different than modern American English and Elizabethan English??? Israelis never struck me as being stupid IQ wise so I figured that they really were quite different. If I am wrong it is not due to lack of inquiry into the matter, I assure you. I really did ask lots of questions about Hebrew when I was learning it in Israel. I guess my friends just didn't have a sufficiently wide frame of reference when it came to language to inform me...certainly none of them were linguists. On 10/24/07, Yoav Nir wrote: > I'm too new to lojban to have firm ideas about it, but I do know my Hebrew. > > Modern Hebrew is very firmly based on the undead language. Since it was > undead, I suppose you could call it resurrected. The comparison with Latin > is apt. Hebrew was used for centuries only for scholarly discourse and > prayer. > > What Ben Yehuda did was not to invent a new language. He only invented many > words that were missing. I don't think anything about the language became > more or less conductive to modern thinking and technology, except that words > were missing for modern things: trains, newspapers, electricity. > > The structure of the language is hardly changed, and so Israeli > schoolchildren can easily read the 2500-year-old text of the bible. It's > much closer to them than the merely 400-year-old KJV is to modern American > children. > > On 10/24/07, Jared Angell wrote: > > > > Well, Eppcott, you are undoubtable contributing in exactly the way > > that I was describing. > > > > I am niave when it comes to linguistics departments, I admit it. I > > suppose I was being overly optimistic. > > > > On the other hand I HAVE studied Jewish history my entire like and > > lived in Israel for 7 years. Modern Hebrew IS NOT the result of what > > you describe it IS the result of the lifetime efforts of a single > > linguist and everyone in Isreal knows that. > > > > Hebrew was a language in usage comparable to latin over the last > > several centuries for over 1,000 years. It did not evolve, it was > > basically undead (dead, but in studial usage for biblical scholars and > > rabbis). Modern Hebrew does not draw greatly from that Hebrew...where > > it does draw from that Hebrew is in base words solely. That form of > > Hebrew was not conducive to modern thinking, technology, and > > communication. > > > > So I hope I have saved your lung. > > > > On 10/24/07, Matt Arnold wrote: > > > Jared, > > > > > > > I really liked the idea of Lojban but at my present level of > > > > involvement I see no point in carrying on with it if it is never going > > > > to be anything more than a code that an extremely low percentage of > > > > the Internet population uses to play mental games with one another. > > > > Which is, forgive me, exactly what it is at the moment. > > > > > > Why forgive you? We like it that way, and we want it that way. Lojban > > > is a toy language. http://nemorathwald.com/node/31 > > > > > > I use it for the same reason that Star Trek fans use Klingon. Maybe > > > Lojban will change the world, and maybe it won't, but I personally > > > will leave that up to you; I have no interest in that. > > > > > > That having been said, I would like there to be a larger number of > > > geeks who use Lojban as a secret code. The best hope for creating such > > > a community of active speakers is in the game I devised: > > > > > > http://nemorathwald.com/node/43 > > > > > > > I feel that if key members of linguistics departments all over > > > > the world were shown the inherit value of Lojban than classes in it > > > > could commence within a year and people would begin learning and using > > > > this language academically. > > > > > > Forgive me, but this statement is hilariously naive! > > > > > > > If people were in a Lojban community where > > > > Lojban culture could develop and children grew up speaking Lojban (it > > > > would be Utopia probably) then translating things and writing things > > > > in Lojban would be as trivial as it was to translate thing from a > > > > multiplicity of languages into Modern Hebrew when the state of Israel > > > > was founded. > > > > > > I laughed so hard at this, I nearly coughed up a lung. The creation of > > > Modern Hebrew was the result of thousands of years of the religious > > > and ethnic heritage of millions of people. And Utopia? It's never > > > going to happen, it's fantasy. Fantasy is fun, which is what I like > > > about Utopia. But taking it seriously only leads to crimes against > > > humanity. > > > > > > > For those of you who have no academic interests but who feel as I do I > > > > would suggest teaching Lojban to your families or opening up a night > > > > course in your local area where you teach Lojban after you yourself > > > > have learned it to a certain degree. > > > > > > I've been doing that for years. The largest local Lojban group in the > > > world meets in my house. > > > > > > -Eppcott > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Jared > > > > "There is no emotion, there is peace; there is no ignorance, there is > > knowledge; there is no passion, there is serenity; there is no > > death, there is the Universe" > > > > "Work smart when you can and hard if you must" > > > > "When a system is corrupt then it's time for a reformat" > > > > "Open Source: The light side of computing. It's never too late to join" > > > > > > > > > -- Jared "There is no emotion, there is peace; there is no ignorance, there is knowledge; there is no passion, there is serenity; there is no death, there is the Universe" "Work smart when you can and hard if you must" "When a system is corrupt then it's time for a reformat" "Open Source: The light side of computing. It's never too late to join"