From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Oct 25 02:41:09 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 25 Oct 2007 02:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IkzCw-0004aY-CT for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 02:41:04 -0700 Received: from web27703.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.146.177.237]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IkzCd-0004ZZ-Nc for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 02:40:49 -0700 Received: (qmail 45289 invoked by uid 60001); 25 Oct 2007 09:40:13 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=f8zeqOUp6ftpHd01NuOK9gR8koLbCL/1Met5rM8NvAfLCrKchHE0O8aFY0JU6enA/Tv4y8g7FP+hwgoVcXOkeyz0xs/f8wPaA8gTBvkYPUrhJyVukiKrCMOWgCd4EqKeZNe8LsmicsVXbe0W/Ul/d5GmXIFR/lZgo+kDqDif02Y=; X-YMail-OSG: Djy1z7YVM1l2.SnxwDQBwQR7.wOfQSWqj9fiz41Ct4tUQjVjEBN2f3ishmJbvk92UVeVjKpRPr.gTTj4XYnxLjlBFELlZLNml974qMcmXmfBEEbDj5kJiKovHkI- Received: from [130.239.156.94] by web27703.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 09:40:12 GMT Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 09:40:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Isen hand Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: geodesic dome To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Message-ID: <16901.43877.qm@web27703.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5602 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: isenhand@yahoo.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners << I'm referring to Buckminister Fuellers design...I was not aware that there are others. I have read his books and seen many of these and all that I am aware of are as I described but maybe there is something you know that I don't...?>> There are two ways to do the design usually referred to as type 1 and type 2 but they have other names as well. Type 1 is the design that BF came up with and type 2 doesn’t have the pentagon shapes. Its also possible to build such a dome without triangles explicitly. You could, for example , just use hexagons and pentagons. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jared Angell To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Sent: Thursday, 25 October, 2007 11:18:23 AM Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: geodesic dome "Except that they're not. Specifically, not just any arrangement of triangles would not necessarily be geodesic. The important thing about the design is that the struts form lines that are straight in relationship to the curved surface. " I'm referring to Buckminister Fuellers design...I was not aware that there are others. I have read his books and seen many of these and all that I am aware of are as I described but maybe there is something you know that I don't...? "All natural languages have phonotactic rules; for example, in English, the consonant cluster "sbl" in the onset of a syllable is unnatural, as is "nskch" in the coda. Thus (anyone familiar with Strong Bad?) the word "sblounskched" is rather ridiculous because it couldn't possibly be natural English. The phonotactic rules choses for Lojban, however, have an international community in mind, so they are meant to be neutral to all. Letting Lojban be completely Anglicized simply because most of its speakers are from the English speaking world would be less than neutral. You must remember that when you add words outside of the phonological constraints made for Lojban, you will do it like an English speaker unless you make a conscious effort not to do so. Also, consants in voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters usually assimilate into either voiced or unvoiced clusters over time or as part of spoken language. (For example, "sblounskched" would probably be pronounced with a /p/ instead of /b/ by anyone not stressing to pronounce it the way it is spelled.) Therefore, the rule may prevent differences from appearing between spoken and written Lojban, which makes it easier to learn. " Okay, so this was a bad example, but the fundamental question remained. "Someone who values the fact that Lojban is different than natural languages, such as yourself, would be likely to resist evolutionary changes that make it more like natural languages. Since there would be few people learning Lojban if they did not value at least *some* of the differences from other languages, the resistance against naturalizing the language is extremely strong, except where the inherent (and perhaps subconscious) nature of language is capable of overwhelming our desires." *Applause* Now this is an excellent, reasoned ,and well thought out answer. Perhaps a bit personal but, hey, I'm a Leo so I don't mind. Ofcourse everyone dodged the point I was making in their own clever waysbut I've learned a great deal from everyones answers...When Lojban does start evolving on it's own I wonder what the reaction will be from it's original creators...As for me personally, like Bob said, I DO value it's artificialness because I beleive it makes the language far more perfect than any evolved language. On 10/25/07, Isen hand wrote: > > > I don't see lojban as ever replacing natural languages. Its > value lie, I think, in becoming an international second language. As such, I > would > see natural evolution of the language as a disadvantage. > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Robert LeChevalier > To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org > Sent: Thursday, 25 October, 2007 7:47:44 AM > Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: geodesic dome > > Jared Angell wrote: > > "The v and s aren't allowed together; they're a voiced-unvoiced > > consonant pair. They must either be separated with a y, or a > > different rafsi be selected." > > > > If Lojban is being allowed to evolve like a natural language than who > cares? > > Someone who values the fact that Lojban is different than natural > languages, such as yourself, would be likely to resist evolutionary > changes that make it more like natural languages. > > Since there would be few people learning Lojban if they did not value > at > least *some* of the differences from other languages, the resistance > against naturalizing the language is extremely strong, except where the > > inherent (and perhaps subconscious) nature of language is capable of > overwhelming our desires. > > lojbab > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good > http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html > > > > -- Jared "There is no emotion, there is peace; there is no ignorance, there is knowledge; there is no passion, there is serenity; there is no death, there is the Universe" "Work smart when you can and hard if you must" "When a system is corrupt then it's time for a reformat" "Open Source: The light side of computing. It's never too late to join" ___________________________________________________________ Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html