From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Oct 25 15:25:18 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IlB8e-0008Ay-FK for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:25:17 -0700 Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.128.187]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IlB8Y-0008A2-7g for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:25:13 -0700 Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 19so1155669fkr for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:25:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=QBKAWFCLsxoOSTsUnQWt2vwUqspXJp9e3mIbtU4KuRY=; b=QwEOUgPHInkQT/SAo6xLxi1nTTNwbYCgWkzDc/EYWrgw306SGl7pISlfIg/lUYy5v645U8rlGRHqwP5WZjA1b09YRtf8GqudRaCuYo0LW+YPEsg/IGyGD8mDBfnL5P39k9u1e0X+8MZTLNdsE8HxCFEmyWxy57cWa3lj10ufZeo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ea5DK1J3rI0Y5S9jCWHT0EaWR/JMKoxdE/5rZ8jBGie3X9nfZwfxHAFTxbD6seaEXPWMSePeq0m+l90inpkJc5NqNSx6eRAsvfrciSAb26xFxBrkgTnSxgxKbUaVFSa6DIknOv/6HSlSCQ3elcChCQXPmjfQmfcMj/+QO4obBWM= Received: by 10.82.152.16 with SMTP id z16mr4468359bud.1193351106588; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.113.2 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2204fa080710251525h31d54a84t4d2ec9326342257d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:25:06 -0500 From: "Jared Angell" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: geodesic dome In-Reply-To: <975a94850710251510h57f6d0d1ue3d900ca8b7369f9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3832_22441393.1193351106581" References: <821531.97363.qm@web27709.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <2204fa080710250218g1d01c396gc2cffe2594094d0a@mail.gmail.com> <47209CB8.8070703@lojban.org> <975a94850710250956t2cd0e855ncce7c1681ff719e2@mail.gmail.com> <4720DEC4.3040806@lojban.org> <975a94850710251146g2f1cb00eka98d0ec87c02ae3b@mail.gmail.com> <47210CF9.9010906@lojban.org> <975a94850710251510h57f6d0d1ue3d900ca8b7369f9@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5655 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: angell.jared@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_3832_22441393.1193351106581 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Joel, Your comments were very elucidating. Thank you!!! Djared (Farlus) On 10/25/07, Joel Shellman wrote: > > On 10/25/07, Robert LeChevalier wrote: > > What is the predicate place structure of rekyboldi'u? > > > > > put in rekyboldi'u and it gives: frame-ish-sphere-ish-building(s) > > > > That is more or less an etymological definition. But what kind of > > building is it really? Nuclear containment structures, radar domes, and > > astronomical observatory domes might also fit the description even if > > not geodesic. > > Yes, but all those things are similar and convey the meaning of the > speaker. If the speaker means one of those specifically, they would > need to add further description or compound the word further to > "specialize" it sufficient to convey the precise meaning desired. > > It's just like: "hey look, a dome!" > > That could mean a great number of things, including that I had just > been blinded by someone's bald head (should have said, don't look in > that case, though). Context, or further clarification is expected in > such communications. > > eg. "a spherish stonish-substance building used for residence"--a good > chance it means monolithic dome home. (though if it's specifically > sphere-ish and not ellipsoid, that wouldn't necessarily be accurate). > > It seems to me that rekyboldi'u should mean exactly what it says--any > spher-ish frame-ish building. If context is insufficient, the speaker > should use a more specific lujvo, or explain further. > > > Knowing that we want the word to mean "geodesic dome", we might get the > > following place structure for rekyboldi'u: > > x1 is a geodesic (semi-spherical) dome for purpose x2, of material x3, > > using polygon forms x4 > > Got it. I would expect semantics would resolve that in many instances. > > Saying: "geodesic dome for purpose stone of material octagons using > polygon forms of living-in" is not going to really cause that much > confusion. > > However, I'm sure there are many cases where it would. But for > clarity, things could be expanded, couldn't they? > > 1: "Look, it's a geodesic dome for purpose stone of material octagons > using polygon forms of living-in" > > 2: "What?" > > 1: "It's a residence" > 1: "It's composed of a stone-like material" > 1: "It's components are octagons" > > In other words, can just about any single statement be expanded into > the number of statements as the positions to make them explicitly--so > in the case where confusion is a distinct possibility, one could do > that to ensure accuracy. Ah, I guess that's what you were saying here: > > > Some people avoid the problem by > > using tanru and not making lujvo - the rules for place structures of > > tanru are completely deterministic. > > Thank you for taking the time to explain to me. It doesn't sound like > that is any deterrent to using the language in the flexible way it is > designed--it is a "gotcha" to be aware of. > > Hmmm.... but it is slightly unfortunate: > > > Some have attempted to devise conventions for predicting the place > > structures (jvojva), but those conventions are not fully deterministic, > > It seems to me this would be an obstacle to creating a general > programmatic parsing/"comprehension" of the langauge. If there is no > deterministic way of figuring out the place meanings... > > > > -- Jared "There is no emotion, there is peace; there is no ignorance, there is knowledge; there is no passion, there is serenity; there is no death, there is the Universe" "Work smart when you can and hard if you must" "When a system is corrupt then it's time for a reformat" "Open Source: The light side of computing. It's never too late to join" ------=_Part_3832_22441393.1193351106581 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Joel,

Your comments were very elucidating.    Thank you!!!

Djared (Farlus)

On 10/25/07, Joel Shellman < jshellman@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/25/07, Robert LeChevalier < lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
> What is the predicate place structure of rekyboldi'u?
>
> > put in rekyboldi'u and it gives: frame-ish-sphere-ish-building(s)
>
> That is more or less an etymological definition.  But what kind of
> building is it really?  Nuclear containment structures, radar domes, and
> astronomical observatory domes might also fit the description even if
> not geodesic.

Yes, but all those things are similar and convey the meaning of the
speaker. If the speaker means one of those specifically, they would
need to add further description or compound the word further to
"specialize" it sufficient to convey the precise meaning desired.

It's just like: "hey look, a dome!"

That could mean a great number of things, including that I had just
been blinded by someone's bald head (should have said, don't look in
that case, though). Context, or further clarification is expected in
such communications.

eg. "a spherish stonish-substance building used for residence"--a good
chance it means monolithic dome home. (though if it's specifically
sphere-ish and not ellipsoid, that wouldn't necessarily be accurate).

It seems to me that rekyboldi'u should mean exactly what it says--any
spher-ish frame-ish building. If context is insufficient, the speaker
should use a more specific lujvo, or explain further.

> Knowing that we want the word to mean "geodesic dome", we might get the
> following place structure for rekyboldi'u:
> x1 is a geodesic (semi-spherical) dome for purpose x2, of material x3,
> using polygon forms x4

Got it. I would expect semantics would resolve that in many instances.

Saying: "geodesic dome for purpose stone of material octagons using
polygon forms of living-in" is not going to really cause that much
confusion.

However, I'm sure there are many cases where it would. But for
clarity, things could be expanded, couldn't they?

1: "Look, it's a geodesic dome for purpose stone of material octagons
using polygon forms of living-in"

2: "What?"

1: "It's a residence"
1: "It's composed of a stone-like material"
1: "It's components are octagons"

In other words, can just about any single statement be expanded into
the number of statements as the positions to make them explicitly--so
in the case where confusion is a distinct possibility, one could do
that to ensure accuracy. Ah, I guess that's what you were saying here:

> Some people avoid the problem by
> using tanru and not making lujvo - the rules for place structures of
> tanru are completely deterministic.

Thank you for taking the time to explain to me. It doesn't sound like
that is any deterrent to using the language in the flexible way it is
designed--it is a "gotcha" to be aware of.

Hmmm.... but it is slightly unfortunate:

> Some have attempted to devise conventions for predicting the place
> structures (jvojva), but those conventions are not fully deterministic,

It seems to me this would be an obstacle to creating a general
programmatic parsing/"comprehension" of the langauge. If there is no
deterministic way of figuring out the place meanings...






--
Jared

"There is no emotion, there is peace;  there is no ignorance, there is knowledge;  there is no passion, there is serenity;  there is no death, there is the Universe"

"Work smart when you can and hard if you must"

"When a system is corrupt then it's time for a reformat"

"Open Source: The light side of computing.  It's never too late to join" ------=_Part_3832_22441393.1193351106581--