From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Oct 25 23:54:23 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IlJ5K-0001dv-Ls for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:54:23 -0700 Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.198.190]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IlJ5I-0001do-Ms for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:54:22 -0700 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so655195rvf for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:54:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=1TkPMacdO+xEBmenIYHRziKX4IumQdpquJMqLu/TjeQ=; b=k5/twMOX3X7dqvb+pzeC7nvl3o390MUDhz5wu4erzbuoj24BKy0+boe1nECn4XtJVTCPsqLTQxs7NlAmmqms7MyB3ab38djP4wvtiSyuWfg7oy+D2ealvuaScYooUf5cd83tHGgB3n6/FDtoxiDZv+9Fv0jN3p0dn+oOUmlP96I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=HNCIzAqixI43ajbZCMe1QTdGzc992RWFPvAfKdpZJuKgqtepNkrD0o75oAh3i8pgf102jaajw5ouVe5dgmejo9CTdfA1A2wNq7WAZbiy+4Hpng2dLwTR5+yb+YIDLzwT8TkJ0y4JucxAAjjF+aaSvXY/liXObI3xlzUANeBn3mI= Received: by 10.141.107.13 with SMTP id j13mr1356376rvm.1193381657061; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.123.14 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <97f5058c0710252354o68f05aa2q61723abdf65eb456@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 14:54:17 +0800 From: Penguino To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ''''''''''' In-Reply-To: <702226df0710251914i3fa13ee3qff786590381bacaf@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2538_1302722.1193381657041" References: <2204fa080710251408l73265a1fh42569c30289e406e@mail.gmail.com> <47211028.8040500@lojban.org> <2204fa080710251516w18930e95mf56628a2e841a688@mail.gmail.com> <702226df0710251914i3fa13ee3qff786590381bacaf@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5677 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: spheniscine@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_2538_1302722.1193381657041 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline No, the ' and , are different. ' denotes an "h" sound, but , denotes a syllable break. The comma only appears in names. I personally think the ' looks better too - I certainly don't want h's all over my cmavo. zo'oru'e On 10/26/07, Jon Top Hat Jones wrote: > > I may be confusing this with Loglan, but i believe that originally the > {'} was what the {,} is now, with the "h" sound being optional for > those who have difficulty with pronouncing {a,o} and the like. > > On 10/25/07, Jared Angell wrote: > > I see. > > > > Okay, I'm really curious: Are you a linguist Bob? And if not then why > > haven't you received an honorary degree in linguistics by now? > > > > Djared (Farlus) > > > > On 10/25/07, Robert LeChevalier wrote: > > > > > > Jared Angell wrote: > > > > Why was ' chosen instead of h? since h is left out but it's in the > > > > middle of the keyboard (even in Russian) this bothers me as a bad > and > > > > annoying choice as the ' seems counterintuitive to anyone accustomed > to > > > > the romantic character set and keyboard. Perhaps there are Spanish > and > > > > French keyboards which readily have ' but lack h???? > > > > > > > > This irritates me something fierce so I'd like to hear the logic > behind > > > > it if anyone knows. > > > > > > h is a consonant in all languages that have the letter. > > > > > > In Lojban, at least in theory, it is NOT defined as a consonant, but a > > > solution to the problem of vowel glides when two vowels are adjacent. > > > > > > Thinking of the orthography as representing the sound-stream: > > > If a close-comma appears between the two vowels, then there is a > voiced > > > glide. If an apostrophe appears, then it is a devoiced glide. If a > > > period appears, there is a glottal stop (and it separates into two > > > words), and if none of these appear, the vowels form a diphthong. > > > > > > English speakers (and those of many other languages) often hear a > > > devoiced glide as an "h", and more importantly, they tend speak a > > > devoiced glide as an "h" as the default. In theory, you could use a > > > different devoiced sound (as long as it isn't one of the other > unvoiced > > > consonants of Lojban, or a glottal stop), and some have used a > devoiced > > > "th" which of course makes a lojbanist sound like like they have a > funny > > > lithp. > > > > > > The apostrophe does not count as a consonant or a vowel in any of the > > > Lojban word-formation rules, which rely on consonant and vowel > patterns. > > > If it were an h, we would probably have great difficulty keeping > this > > > clear. > > > > > > lojbab > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Jared > > > > "There is no emotion, there is peace; there is no ignorance, there is > > knowledge; there is no passion, there is serenity; there is no death, > > there is the Universe" > > > > "Work smart when you can and hard if you must" > > > > "When a system is corrupt then it's time for a reformat" > > > > "Open Source: The light side of computing. It's never too late to join" > > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .topy'at. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu > > > > ------=_Part_2538_1302722.1193381657041 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline No, the ' and , are different. ' denotes an "h" sound, but , denotes a syllable break. The comma only appears in names.

I personally think the ' looks better too - I certainly don't want h's all over my cmavo. zo'oru'e

On 10/26/07, Jon Top Hat Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com > wrote:
I may be confusing this with Loglan, but i believe that originally the
{'} was what the {,} is now, with the "h" sound being optional for
those who have difficulty with pronouncing {a,o} and the like.

On 10/25/07, Jared Angell < angell.jared@gmail.com> wrote:
> I see.
>
> Okay, I'm really curious: Are you a linguist Bob?  And if not then why
> haven't you received an honorary degree in linguistics by now?
>
> Djared (Farlus)
>
> On 10/25/07, Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
> >
> > Jared Angell wrote:
> > > Why was ' chosen instead of h?  since h is left out but it's in the
> > > middle of the keyboard (even in Russian) this bothers me as a bad and
> > > annoying choice as the ' seems counterintuitive to anyone accustomed to
> > > the romantic character set and keyboard.  Perhaps there are Spanish and
> > > French keyboards which readily have ' but lack h????
> > >
> > > This irritates me something fierce so I'd like to hear the logic behind
> > > it if anyone knows.
> >
> > h is a consonant in all languages that have the letter.
> >
> > In Lojban, at least in theory, it is NOT defined as a consonant, but a
> > solution to the problem of vowel glides when two vowels are adjacent.
> >
> > Thinking of the orthography as representing the sound-stream:
> > If a close-comma appears between the two vowels, then there is a voiced
> > glide.  If an apostrophe appears, then it is a devoiced glide.  If a
> > period appears, there is a glottal stop (and it separates into two
> > words), and if none of these appear, the vowels form a diphthong.
> >
> > English speakers (and those of many other languages) often hear a
> > devoiced glide as an "h", and more importantly, they tend speak a
> > devoiced glide as an "h" as the default.  In theory, you could use a
> > different devoiced sound (as long as it isn't one of the other unvoiced
> > consonants of Lojban, or a glottal stop), and some have used a devoiced
> > "th" which of course makes a lojbanist sound like like they have a funny
> > lithp.
> >
> > The apostrophe does not count as a consonant or a vowel in any of the
> > Lojban word-formation rules, which rely on consonant and vowel patterns.
> >   If it were an h, we would probably have great difficulty keeping this
> > clear.
> >
> > lojbab
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Jared
>
> "There is no emotion, there is peace;  there is no ignorance, there is
> knowledge;  there is no passion, there is serenity;  there is no death,
> there is the Universe"
>
> "Work smart when you can and hard if you must"
>
> "When a system is corrupt then it's time for a reformat"
>
> "Open Source: The light side of computing.  It's never too late to join"
>


--
mu'o mi'e .topy'at.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu




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