From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Nov 05 04:11:40 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 05 Nov 2007 04:11:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Ip0ns-0003Fm-Jr for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Nov 2007 04:11:40 -0800 Received: from squid17.laughingsquid.net ([72.32.93.144]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Ip0nh-0003FW-1c for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Nov 2007 04:11:40 -0800 Received: (qmail 32345 invoked by uid 48); 5 Nov 2007 04:11:13 -0800 Received: from c-75-68-233-37.hsd1.vt.comcast.net (c-75-68-233-37.hsd1.vt.comcast.net [75.68.233.37]) by webmail.ixkey.info (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Mon, 5 Nov 2007 04:11:13 -0800 Message-ID: <20071105041113.05l35j3o0c8csww0@webmail.ixkey.info> Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 04:11:13 -0800 From: mungojelly@ixkey.info To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] using the word lists (was "Re: .i mi prami la lojban. .ui") References: <20071031010716.b56957j4o4cwo4oc@webmail.ixkey.info> <97f5058c0711011837q561621c0rdd55da567378ebd8@mail.gmail.com> <97f5058c0711011843n4e2dbe6t2dc339110e0ddd34@mail.gmail.com> <200711012234.40920.phma@phma.optus.nu> <3429e3e70711020515r25712db0ud2fc16c0052452b2@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3429e3e70711020515r25712db0ud2fc16c0052452b2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.1.4) X-Spam-Score: 1.8 X-Spam-Score-Int: 18 X-Spam-Bar: + X-archive-position: 5791 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mungojelly@ixkey.info Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Quoting zimmah : > i'm also interested in lojban however i don't really know where i can learn > the words, i have printed out some grammar stuff which i readed and kinda > understand, but i need to find a way to teach at least the most important > words. The main lists I use are the gismu list at http://www.lojban.org/publications/wordlists/gismu.txt and the cmavo list at http://www.lojban.org/publications/wordlists/cmavo_selmaho_order.txt In the following discussion, C = a consonant and V = a vowel. Whenever you see a word in Lojban, it's usually going to be one of three things: A cmavo, which will stand alone in a form like CVV or CV'V, like "bau" or "se'o", a gismu which will be either CVCCV (like "gismu") or CCVCV (like "bridi"), or a lujvo, which looks like two or more parts together, each part shaped like CCV, CVV, CV'V, or CVC (but a CVC part will never end the word). So part of the beauty of Lojban is that you can unambiguously know what category an unfamiliar word is, and if it's a compound word you can know unambiguously how to break it down and what the parts are. So if I encounter a gismu I don't know, I still know immediately that it's a gismu because it looks like CVCCV or CCVCV, and I can look it up on the gismu list. I find that if I search the list in my webbrowser for a gismu preceded & followed by a space, it usually brings me right to the entry. So that's a little trick. Usually that works for looking up the rafsi in a lujvo, too. (The rafsi are the parts of a lujvo.) If you're just starting I wouldn't even bother trying to look up lujvo at first. There's a lot of Lojban out there written mostly with gismu and as a beginner you might want to focus mostly on that. Using rafsi to make lujvo is like an advanced shorthand-- it uses the same gismu, but you have to know a lot more names for all of them & the rules of combination. So if you just learn to work with gismu at first, you'll be in good shape to learn their rafsi later. Just take simple texts & look up the gismu to get the idea of what they're talking about, then look up the cmavo to try to understand how it's structured. Like if I say: .i mi ba'anai klama le xamgu zarci mu'i lo nu mi terve'u le nanba You can start by looking up the gismu and you'll have: I something go to the good store something to I something the bread. Which is already pretty much the idea. Add in the meaning of the cmavo "ba'anai" and "mu'i": I remember going to the store with the motive of I something the bread. And then finally if you're still curious what the sentence says :) then try to bother with the lujvo, in this case ter-ve'u, which stands for "te vecnu," buyer x1 is sold product x2 (by seller x3 etc). Don't just look at the keywords when you look up gismu. Don't look at the keywords at all. What's important is the places of the gismu, the structure. For instance if you just know that vecnu is about "selling" or "vending" you still have no idea who the "te vecnu" is (it's who the thing is sold to). A lot of the time only one place of a gismu is being used, often a place other than the first place or the keyworded place. For instance, if you see the words "lo ve tivni", that means a television set. You don't even need to know what the other three places of tivni are to use that aspect of it. So don't just think of gismu as "meaning" one thing in English-- usually they have three or four different meanings that are squished together & get brought out one by one by the grammar. Hope that helps. :) <3, brett