From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Dec 31 21:57:47 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 31 Dec 2007 21:57:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J9a8I-00067A-VZ for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2007 21:57:47 -0800 Received: from eastrmmtao105.cox.net ([68.230.240.47]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J9a88-00066d-HF for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2007 21:57:45 -0800 Received: from eastrmimpo02.cox.net ([68.1.16.120]) by eastrmmtao105.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20080101055726.XTKN15951.eastrmmtao105.cox.net@eastrmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 00:57:26 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([72.192.234.183]) by eastrmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id Xhws1Y00J3y5FKc0000000; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 00:56:53 -0500 Message-ID: <4779D5C7.5090804@lojban.org> Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 00:55:19 -0500 From: Robert LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: confusing gismus References: <2f91285f0712300908l379651c5o91cde87e8b81960e@mail.gmail.com> <20071230110938.lvwyvup5kwsc04g4@webmail.ixkey.info> <925d17560712301407j353e0f17j264267c967937b91@mail.gmail.com> <20071230144732.4i70hzzqosk4ogcs@webmail.ixkey.info> <925d17560712310340j7a5cdf55l639a87dc1afd6c59@mail.gmail.com> <47793898.6090100@lojban.org> <925d17560712311241h2976efbcx3cc2d633900a3a2c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <925d17560712311241h2976efbcx3cc2d633900a3a2c@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 103 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Jorge Llambías wrote: > On Dec 31, 2007 3:44 PM, Robert LeChevalier wrote: > >>Jorge Llambías wrote: >> >>>At least that's the theory. In practice I think most people just use {skapi} >>>even though {pilka} is wanted because {skapi} has keyword "skin" and >>>{pilka} has keyword "crust". >> >>More importantly, pilka might be used for a bread crust, but I don't >>think it is skapi except in a metaphorical sense. I'm not certain about >>an orange peel or an eggshell - both are clearly pilka. > > > That's the distinction bret mentioned, but is skapi just the pilka of > an animal, or does it have to be the *extracted* (and processed?) > pilka from an animal? I don't think I have thought of skapi as necessarily detached, though it can be. But I do think of it as being a distinct organ/body part of an animal with all the range of functions applicable to that organ, which are more than mere protection. By contrast, a pilka could be found on non-living things and on living things covers a broader range of concept, probably including both skapi and calku and korka perhaps some things which are none of the above (a chrysalis perhaps?). If actual usage has limited skapi's meaning to that of the material derived from the body organ of a (hopefully dead) animal, I could probably live with it. But Nora and I both think that the place structure wording does not exclude the body part/pilka role. There probably could have been other ways to divide the semantic space, to reduce the number of gismu by one or two, with pilka defining the function, skapi the material, and jdari eliminating the need for calku, but we certainly weren't being reductionist at that point. JCB had two words pelpi and skapi (which confusingly are our skapi and pilka, respectively), and I don't think his definitions were any clearer. In the interest of eventual reconciliation, we were trying NOT to drop a gismu unless it clearly belonged in lujvo or borrowings (like "billiards"). lojbab