From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Dec 26 07:44:22 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 26 Dec 2007 07:44:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J7YQd-00050f-Vg for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 07:44:21 -0800 Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.198.191]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J7YQY-00050A-4l for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 07:44:19 -0800 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so1817573rvf.46 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 07:44:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=U9rsJH2j44HaHIk/7B1pCwRfvkoTYwp2CpLd3/0KexA=; b=tXWaB/3EY5elcmGgBQq17j6qK+E29fIHTwEUWcoX9alvoDXm8URCbsAxk1yvrPUl7C9+1CGOkApSdKWcY+Cm0Sh316KAheXkzSXrZn2LAdyThzstYfCYBKo+A91MXqTk0Bnl1mak0tHv44B1gb6ebwVezQeUbl4E/KmHlC/QSJc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=lox3fuug/chI5ked3KvghqkbE+nN9vPYyue5mymQlrgUNHo7wo+LYoYD+gW4i3l5c2m0/qLM/LXRzPHJ/Cb5HFCfJLg86YFGrBg7TgZuUcFr9+dmpvWm38/m+7PghgwZ9zISRWHyv1VKa28rFNsFv53HfBblU4TxuLcUQ1tQ9VA= Received: by 10.141.18.14 with SMTP id v14mr3375473rvi.242.1198683853120; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 07:44:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.202.21 with HTTP; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 07:44:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <96f789a60712260744r14fd1c39of2c8729000d721e0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:44:13 -0500 From: "Michael Turniansky" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: nitcu le denpa lerfu fi ma In-Reply-To: <925d17560712260720h79a85a40ldf662246410cbdcb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_7290_6076323.1198683853109" References: <20071225195037.f1affe0bd44gssgs@webmail.ixkey.info> <97f5058c0712252012g60c0f362qa057866ea28556b2@mail.gmail.com> <200712260106.34434.phma@phma.optus.nu> <96f789a60712260624x6587b05r12e8f47670a497@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712260720h79a85a40ldf662246410cbdcb@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 37 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_7290_6076323.1198683853109 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Dec 26, 2007 10:20 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > On Dec 26, 2007 11:24 AM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: > > On Dec 26, 2007 1:06 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > > > > > Thus {zoi zoi. borzoi .zoi} is a valid quotation. About {zoi ly. > > > Lythraceae .ly.}, I'm not so sure. > > > > Not according to the refgram, Chapter 19, section 10: > > > > " Its syntax is ``zoi X. text .X'', where X is a Lojban word (called th= e > > delimiting word) which is separated from the quoted text by pauses, and > > which is not found in the written text or spoken phoneme stream." > > > > Maybe this is different under dotside?? Or are suggesting it's fine > in > > writing, but not spoken due to the existence of spaces/nonspaces? > > The issue here is what does it mean for a word to be "found in the writte= n > text or spoken phoneme stream". As I see it, the word {ly} is not found > in the written text "Lythraceae". As for the phoneme stream, it will > depend > on how it is pronounced. Only if "thraceae" is pronounced in such a way > that it sounds like a Lojban word or words will {ly} be separated as a > Lojban word. > My fault, I should have clarified. I was objecting to the borzoi example= . ------=_Part_7290_6076323.1198683853109 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline

On Dec 26, 2007 10:20 AM, Jorge Llamb=ED= as <jjllambias@gmail.com>= wrote:
On Dec 26, 2007 11:24 AM, Michael Tur= niansky <mturniansky@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
> On Dec 26, 2007 1:06 AM, Pierre Abbat < phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> >
> > Thus {zoi zoi. = borzoi .zoi} is a valid quotation. About {zoi ly.
> > Lythraceae .= ly.}, I'm not so sure.
>
>   Not according to  th= e refgram, Chapter 19, section 10:
>
> " Its syntax is ``zoi X. text .X'', where X i= s a Lojban word (called the
> delimiting word) which is separated fro= m the quoted text by pauses, and
> which is not found in the written = text or spoken phoneme stream."
>
>   Maybe this is different under  dotside??  = ;Or are suggesting it's fine in
> writing, but not spoken due to = the existence of spaces/nonspaces?

The issue here is wha= t does it mean for a word to be "found in the written
text or spoken phoneme stream". As I see it, the word {ly} is not = found
in the written text "Lythraceae". As for the phoneme str= eam, it will depend
on how it is pronounced. Only if "thraceae"= ; is pronounced in such a way
that it sounds like a Lojban word or words will {ly} be separated as a<= br>Lojban word.

  My fault, I should have clarified.  I was objecting to the= borzoi example.
 

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