From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Dec 26 08:56:44 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 26 Dec 2007 08:56:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J7ZYi-0008PU-4G for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 08:56:44 -0800 Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.198.187]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J7ZYd-0008P0-DY for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 08:56:43 -0800 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so1836156rvf.46 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 08:56:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=XKBXa0B0jtRW5U/5XKdghc0vYCYm8WJP112qFRegj1M=; b=O01JSu+GwWsdXJbjwIxFIJzuNL1ZCTZNLtPdA+7wdFRmgVjWqf6h2ocQbINACeQjCQrfUeV5gm0JnttytuqT09xFbLiegDL+GXQT3lBaRPmAjVb2n8dsbvve2tR0WUMND4uSMURRBrS2eUMLYuLgPG8aMEbJc01RnIbLfgCKYYg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=B3Rw8o+u7V0v7K4NqP7KwxZHXH3gz/sQwFJUCvGBCuSDpTdfQF7g0wMRykcZQnXiWkTBNuDNAQ8hMqVgHHNkIfi2No2Ar3C+izn4kTZuD+h+MfbUip4+1g0IA9ZzXEIjTlAlZ+Q3g5XsFgvzD00FrJdvb/IK0Ry8bs3ns8YRnPU= Received: by 10.141.196.13 with SMTP id y13mr3434846rvp.79.1198688193154; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 08:56:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.202.21 with HTTP; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 08:56:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <96f789a60712260856o1f283b81ma8c640e5779a546c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:56:33 -0500 From: "Michael Turniansky" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: nitcu le denpa lerfu fi ma In-Reply-To: <925d17560712260754o2e6b28a6p4e412e1e6809e19d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_7373_13783361.1198688193139" References: <20071225195037.f1affe0bd44gssgs@webmail.ixkey.info> <97f5058c0712252012g60c0f362qa057866ea28556b2@mail.gmail.com> <200712260106.34434.phma@phma.optus.nu> <96f789a60712260624x6587b05r12e8f47670a497@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712260720h79a85a40ldf662246410cbdcb@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60712260744r14fd1c39of2c8729000d721e0@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712260754o2e6b28a6p4e412e1e6809e19d@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 42 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_7373_13783361.1198688193139 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Dec 26, 2007 10:54 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > On Dec 26, 2007 12:44 PM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: > > > > On Dec 26, 2007 1:06 AM, Pierre Abbat < phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Thus {zoi zoi. borzoi .zoi} is a valid quotation. > > > > > > > > Not according to the refgram, Chapter 19, section 10: > > > > > > > > " Its syntax is ``zoi X. text .X'', where X is a Lojban word (calle= d > the > > > > delimiting word) which is separated from the quoted text by pauses, > and > > > > which is not found in the written text or spoken phoneme stream." > > > > My fault, I should have clarified. I was objecting to the borzoi > example. > > It's the same thing. The word {zoi} is not part of the written text > {borzoi} > nor of the spoken phoneme stream, which contains only a lujvo. > I'm sorry, but that's NOT what the CLL says. From the same section: Within written text, the Lojban written word used as a delimiting word may not appear, whereas within spoken text, the sound of the delimiting word ma= y not be uttered. This leads to occasional breakdowns of audio-visual isomorphism: Example 10.3 is fine in speech but ungrammatical as written, whereas Example 10.4 is correct when written but ungrammatical in speech. 10.3) ?mi djuno fi le valsi po'u zoi gy. gyrations .gy. I know about the word which-is ``gyrations''. 10.4) ?mi djuno fi le valsi po'u zoi jai. gyrations .jai I know about the word which-is ``gyrations''. ----- "jai"/"gy" only appears as part of "gyrations" but is explicitly disallowed. --gejyspa ------=_Part_7373_13783361.1198688193139 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline

On Dec 26, 2007 10:54 AM, Jorge Llamb=ED= as <jjllambias@gmail.com>= wrote:
On Dec 26, 2007 12:44 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:> > > On Dec 26, 2007 1:06 AM, Pierre Abbat < phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> > > >
> > > = > Thus {zoi zoi. borzoi .zoi} is a valid quotation.
> > >
> > >   Not according to  t= he refgram, Chapter 19, section 10:
> > >
> > > " Its syntax is ``zoi X. text .X&= #39;', where X is a Lojban word (called the
> > > delimitin= g word) which is separated from the quoted text by pauses, and
> >= > which is not found in the written text or spoken phoneme stream."= ;
>
>   My fault, I should have= clarified.  I was objecting to the borzoi example.

It= 9;s the same thing. The word {zoi} is not part of the written text {borzoi}=
nor of the spoken phoneme stream, which contains only a lujvo.
  I'm sorry, but that's NOT what the CLL= says.  From the same section:

Within written text, the Lojban w= ritten word used as a delimiting word may not appear, whereas within spoken text, the sound of the delimiting word may not be uttered. This leads to occasional breakdowns of audio-visual isomorphism: Example 10.3 is fine in speech = but ungrammatical as written, whereas Example 10.4 is correct when written but ungrammatical in speech.

10.3)    ?mi djuno fi le valsi po&#=
39;u zoi gy. gyrations .gy.
    I know about the word which-is ``gyratio=
ns''.

10.4) ?mi djuno fi =
le valsi po'u zoi jai. gyrations .jai


    I know about the word which-is ``gyrations''.
=  -----
  "jai"/"gy" only appears a= s part of "gyrations" but is explicitly disallowed.

 =          --gejyspa

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