From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Dec 26 11:36:26 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:36:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J7c3F-0007TG-NM for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:36:26 -0800 Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.198.187]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J7c3B-0007Sj-Be for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:36:25 -0800 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so1877215rvf.46 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:36:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=tr8jZVi7OeydyJmK7UCIgavrgcJEZ8+BrAjrXXsD9J8=; b=L63/t6vU8iGZ6xif99HiulCFzR7LDdElSuB06F9CmPGvqFbGjoICMrt9lXjUzTDH9x9HHqDKqbJ/FUeIs9aqiOlgPRN/2QwFIYiEcAyhwVabtssE3eLSCVKPXa3U15GiQNmTMtsA9Q5YfBqm7ex4LCtV9BwcdqzBNfDZkNpWqSM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=jBpEpDhNDEeu+ulhsw5RZu40TrVIe7QDFoiKNomo8PAFzjXnUyG/rGDYJd6U94GJ3ETO9aoEgLK+F85mLrxyk8q6ak9R7DZcbWXiX7V7jWObc0mDijVCzJcjdWdwyCUsowit5ACWcR+dLNfeHWc/GIYrFGwybScEvXRdylf9TOw= Received: by 10.140.193.16 with SMTP id q16mr3531315rvf.109.1198697779896; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:36:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.202.21 with HTTP; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:36:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <96f789a60712261136q415cc5caw3a54a200711f30fe@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 14:36:19 -0500 From: "Michael Turniansky" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: nitcu le denpa lerfu fi ma In-Reply-To: <925d17560712261026k1617e941nee01e2d0d41d115c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_7976_5307051.1198697779877" References: <20071225195037.f1affe0bd44gssgs@webmail.ixkey.info> <200712260106.34434.phma@phma.optus.nu> <96f789a60712260624x6587b05r12e8f47670a497@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712260720h79a85a40ldf662246410cbdcb@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60712260744r14fd1c39of2c8729000d721e0@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712260754o2e6b28a6p4e412e1e6809e19d@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60712260856o1f283b81ma8c640e5779a546c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712260922q26dd6069r4eb8b60b60ad7c8d@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60712261013k36624c44m8685ee8a6f32ffb7@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712261026k1617e941nee01e2d0d41d115c@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 48 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_7976_5307051.1198697779877 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Dec 26, 2007 1:26 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > On Dec 26, 2007 3:13 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote= : > > > > The "fall-off" problem is presumably that AS SOON AS you hear(/see) > that > > guard word/syllable, whatever, the quote is closed off, and the rest > must be > > considered to be presumably valid lojban, and neither human nor compute= r > > parsers are expected to know it's an exception, since in a foreign quot= e > > there could be (as here) a pause before the word inside the quote. > > "mi djuno fi lo valsi po'u zoi jai .jai...*reicns jai" > > But the exception would be to decide that you have hit the word before yo= u > get to a pause. You can never, in a Lojban string of text or sound, be > sure > that you have a word until you've reached a pause or space, because it > can always be part of a cmevla. Why would there be an exception here? > No, no, you misunderstand me... there is no pause between "jai" and "reicnz", but there was BEFORE jai .... since lojban does not need a pause after the closing quote-word (or ANY word, except of course if it ends in a consonant (or any other spot the grammar requires it)) the pause before gyrations would be "heard" as "close quote-reicns" which would therefore be ungrammatical, since a cmevla couldn't appear in that position. Remember.. The point of the la'o and zopi is to quote foreign things. In those languages, the rules for pausing etc. might conceivably be different. The ONLY way for a parser (human or computer) to tell if it's over is to hear pause+guard word. As soon as that condition is met, the quote is done, and real lojban starts once again. (similarly, in written text, spaces aren't necessary, and "." are necessary sometimes unless spaces are used. Since the typographic conventions for the stuff inside the quotes can be different, the parser has to know by a space+word or period+word. As soon as that's encountered, the quoting stops.) > > The two words {jai.reicns} cannot be quoted with {jai ... jai}, but the > single cmevla {jaireicns} is not a problem for the distinct word {jai}. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > --gejyspa ------=_Part_7976_5307051.1198697779877 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline

On Dec 26, 2007 1:26 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDa= s <jjllambias@gmail.com> = wrote:
On Dec 26, 2007 3:13 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:>
>   The "fall-off" problem is presumably that AS= SOON AS you hear(/see) that
> guard word/syllable, whatever, the quote is closed off, and the re= st must be
> considered to be presumably valid lojban, and neither hu= man nor computer
> parsers are expected to know it's an exception= , since in a foreign quote
> there could be (as here) a pause before the word inside the quote.=
> "mi djuno fi lo valsi po'u zoi jai .jai...*reicns jai&quo= t;

But the exception would be to decide that you have hit the = word before you
get to a pause. You can never, in a Lojban string of text or sound, be = sure
that you have a word until you've reached a pause or space, bec= ause it
can always be part of a cmevla. Why would there be an exception = here?

  No, no, you misunderstand me... there is n= o pause between "jai" and "reicnz", but there was BEFOR= E jai .... since lojban does not need a pause after the closing quote-word = (or ANY word, except of course if it ends in a consonant (or any other spot= the grammar requires it)) the pause before gyrations would be "heard&= quot; as "close quote-reicns" which would therefore be ungrammati= cal, since a cmevla couldn't appear in that position.  Remember.. = The point of the la'o and zopi is to quote foreign things.  In tho= se languages, the rules for pausing etc. might conceivably be different. Th= e ONLY way for a parser (human or computer) to tell if it's over is to = hear pause+guard word.  As soon as that condition is met, the quote is= done, and real lojban starts once again. (similarly, in written text, spac= es aren't necessary, and "." are necessary sometimes unless s= paces are used.  Since the typographic conventions for the stuff insid= e the quotes can be different, the parser has to know by a space+word or pe= riod+word.  As soon as that's encountered, the quoting stops.)
 
<= br>The two words {jai.reicns} cannot be quoted with {jai ... jai}, but the<= br>single cmevla {jaireicns} is not a problem for the distinct word {jai}.

mu'o mi'e xorxes
<= /div>

       =         --gejyspa

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