From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Dec 26 12:49:34 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 26 Dec 2007 12:49:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J7dC2-00029c-55 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 12:49:34 -0800 Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.198.188]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J7dBy-00029B-35 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 12:49:33 -0800 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so1896748rvf.46 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 12:49:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=voakjerSmQNyZFSY0UjQq3RZCiIL3+SV0i2TrSYwobc=; b=eS9QsMI8SecaxzL0kGzaYKr769in54TYqV9uLGT2jpX8b8yZOBiOr6YISCWoKiz3OEAZCsX4elf9//Bhc1avNRwsJi/tWEh/8hNuJeIS4h32dYbxJATI89RfyoY2Sc50QBjLckJD3XTGmrs0UFXMp6zG4LiljqJHTCE9GWcxMFw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=smjrjbVHa9/fJEvWrE5aF+b/qOw/YdzWMpfNiOiGyEvnvX6g0DlSAgr/Py8/+gxuRJMXH6rvcrp7cZMeencNL+qDCQHftZ242RYRImbUOOqCsq0EJ9gMRUnrayJZsgavlxcNoTkPCsn7HLL+c1NzbgiLrF5W4hK8S+f8xLONz94= Received: by 10.141.99.4 with SMTP id b4mr3584672rvm.40.1198702168361; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 12:49:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.202.21 with HTTP; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 12:49:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <96f789a60712261249g3994ac48l2f3754a576875610@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 15:49:28 -0500 From: "Michael Turniansky" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: nitcu le denpa lerfu fi ma In-Reply-To: <925d17560712261220m1a3a5a7ft98f7037b5b4aeccf@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8095_21684176.1198702168327" References: <20071225195037.f1affe0bd44gssgs@webmail.ixkey.info> <925d17560712260720h79a85a40ldf662246410cbdcb@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60712260744r14fd1c39of2c8729000d721e0@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712260754o2e6b28a6p4e412e1e6809e19d@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60712260856o1f283b81ma8c640e5779a546c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712260922q26dd6069r4eb8b60b60ad7c8d@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60712261013k36624c44m8685ee8a6f32ffb7@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712261026k1617e941nee01e2d0d41d115c@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60712261136q415cc5caw3a54a200711f30fe@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712261220m1a3a5a7ft98f7037b5b4aeccf@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 51 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_8095_21684176.1198702168327 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Dec 26, 2007 3:20 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > On Dec 26, 2007 4:36 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote= : > > > > No, no, you misunderstand me... there is no pause between "jai" and > > "reicnz", but there was BEFORE jai .... since lojban does not need a > pause > > after the closing quote-word (or ANY word, except of course if it ends > in a > > consonant (or any other spot the grammar requires it)) the pause before > > gyrations would be "heard" as "close quote-reicns" which would therefor= e > be > > ungrammatical, since a cmevla couldn't appear in that position. > > But that's not right. It is not enough to hear the sounds "j" "a" "i" > in a row in > order to know that you have heard the word {jai}. In order to know that > you > have the word {jai} those sounds must be either followed by a pause, by > another cmavo or by a brivla. If they are followed by anything else, you > don't > have the word {jai}. You have either the beginning of a cmevla or the > beginning > of a non-word string, neither of which can be the closing delimiter. > > > Remember.. > > The point of the la'o and zopi is to quote foreign things. In those > > languages, the rules for pausing etc. might conceivably be different. > > Of course, but that doesn't matter. After each pause you have to check > whether what follows is the delimiter word. > > > The > > ONLY way for a parser (human or computer) to tell if it's over is to > hear > > pause+guard word. > > Exactly. Pause+guard WORD, the delimiter must be a word not the > beginning of one. > > > As soon as that condition is met, the quote is done, and > > real lojban starts once again. > > Exactly. And until you know you have the word, the condition is not met. > In the string {.jaireicnz} you don't have the word {jai}. > > > (similarly, in written text, spaces aren't > > necessary, and "." are necessary sometimes unless spaces are used. > Since > > the typographic conventions for the stuff inside the quotes can be > > different, the parser has to know by a space+word or period+word. As > soon > > as that's encountered, the quoting stops.) > > Correct. Space-or-period + WORD, not part-of-word. > > I understand that CLL says that the sounds cannot appear even if they > don't > actually form the word, but that is an unnecessary restriction and in > fact it is > harder to implement in the parser. It is easier for the parser to just > compare > words, not parts of words. (And that's what camxes does, in fact.) > Maybe it's the particular example that's causing my point to not be understood.. .let's try this -- mi nelci lo nu pinxe la'o .ie. melo .ielo .ie sodva (intending to mean "I like to drink Mello Yello soda".) Now, since we paused before the Yello in speech, it is interpreted identically to "mi nelci lo nu pinxe la'o .ie mel= o .ie lo .ie sodva" (since there is no need to pause after the unquote. This has the meaning of "I like to drink "Mello" out of a soda" Hence, the need for the restriction. --gejyspa ------=_Part_8095_21684176.1198702168327 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline

On Dec 26, 2007 3:20 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDa= s <jjllambias@gmail.com> = wrote:
On Dec 26, 2007 4:36 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:>
>   No, no, you misunderstand me... there is no pause betw= een "jai" and
> "reicnz", but there was BEFORE jai .... since lojban doe= s not need a pause
> after the closing quote-word (or ANY word, excep= t of course if it ends in a
> consonant (or any other spot the gramma= r requires it)) the pause before
> gyrations would be "heard" as "close quote-reicns&q= uot; which would therefore be
> ungrammatical, since a cmevla couldn&= #39;t appear in that position.

But that's not right. It is= not enough to hear the sounds "j" "a" "i"
in a row in
order to know that you have heard the word {jai}. In ord= er to know that you
have the word {jai} those sounds must be either foll= owed by a pause, by
another cmavo or by a brivla. If they are followed b= y anything else, you don't
have the word {jai}. You have either the beginning of a cmevla or the b= eginning
of a non-word string, neither of which can be the closing delim= iter.

>  Remember..
> The point = of the la'o and zopi is to quote foreign things.  In those
> languages, the rules for pausing etc. might conceivably be differe= nt.

Of course, but that doesn't matter. After each pause y= ou have to check
whether what follows is the delimiter word.

> The
> ONLY way for a parser (human or computer) to tell if i= t's over is to hear
> pause+guard word.

Exactly. Pau= se+guard WORD, the delimiter must be a word not the
beginning of one.

> As soon as that condition is met, the qu= ote is done, and
> real lojban starts once again.

Exactl= y. And until you know you have the word, the condition is not met.
In th= e string {.jaireicnz} you don't have the word {jai}.

> (similarly, in written text, spaces aren= 't
> necessary, and "." are necessary sometimes unless = spaces are used.  Since
> the typographic conventions for the st= uff inside the quotes can be
> different, the parser has to know by a space+word or period+word. =  As soon
> as that's encountered, the quoting stops.)
Correct. Space-or-period + WORD, not part-of-word.

I understa= nd that CLL says that the sounds cannot appear even if they don't
actually form the word, but that is an unnecessary restriction and infact it is
harder to implement in the parser. It is easier for the par= ser to just compare
words, not parts of words. (And that's what camx= es does, in fact.)

  Maybe it's the particular example that= 's causing my point to not be understood.. .let's try this --
mi nelci lo nu pinxe la'o .ie. melo .ielo .ie  sodva (intending = to mean "I like to drink Mello Yello soda".)  Now, since we = paused before the Yello in speech, it is interpreted identically to "m= i nelci lo nu pinxe la'o .ie melo .ie lo .ie sodva" (since there i= s no need to pause after the unquote.  This has the meaning of "I= like to drink "Mello" out of a <agrrement> soda" = ; Hence, the need for the restriction.


          &nb= sp;            =      --gejyspa


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