From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Dec 09 13:44:18 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 09 Dec 2007 13:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J1Twg-0001bd-Gm for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 13:44:18 -0800 Received: from michael.checkpoint.com ([194.29.32.68]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J1Twa-0001bI-UY for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 09 Dec 2007 13:44:17 -0800 Received: from [172.31.21.233] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by michael.checkpoint.com (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.10) with ESMTP id lB9Li5OY006829 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2007 23:44:05 +0200 (IST) Message-Id: <57ADCFF9-B0C7-4116-9D4A-12D5D22E75ED@gmail.com> From: Yoav Nir To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <000001c83aa8$5793cd40$06bb67c0$@com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-3--113893500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: newbies troubles 2 Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 23:43:58 +0200 References: <000001c83aa8$5793cd40$06bb67c0$@com> X-Spam-Score: 1.2 X-Spam-Score-Int: 12 X-Spam-Bar: + X-archive-position: 5849 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: yoav.nir@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --Apple-Mail-3--113893500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The thing is, answering naicai does not mean "absolutely not, and I =20 shall that you never to mention it in my presence again". It only =20 says "absolutely not" You might infer anger, but for that you'd need to add some other =20 attitudinals. If you said "cai" that would mean "absolutely" - the event is funny. You could add je'unai to mark that you don't really mean the cai, but =20= that's kind of like quoting. I guess sarcasm doesn't go so well in a language that is supposed to =20 be unambiguous. Humor, sarcasm, and irony. They all seem to depend on =20= ambiguities. mu'o mi'e ioAV On Dec 9, 2007, at 11:13 PM, Alex Bruce wrote: > My progress in lojban has being slow going. > > The flashcards I=92ve received I=92m making poor progress on, as it =20= > stands I=92ve managed to learn maybe 10 selbri. I=92m getting better =20= > with the structure of lojban but I can=92t seem to get the bulk down. > > I was thinking maybe some exercises in translation would help. Does =20= > anyone have some paragraphs or anything that translate well into =20 > lojban? > Or maybe you have another strategy I can use? > > Also I=92m wondering about sarcasm, my favorite part of communication. > An example in the beginners guide goes like this: > .i .u'ipei do farlu le pesxu > You fell into the mud! Funny, eh? > could well be ru'e: "Kinda..." Then again, it could also be naicai: =20= > "Absolutely not, and I shall thank you never to mention it in my =20 > presence again." (Allowing for some latitude in translation...) > > this I get, but the principle of sarcasm is to illustrate something =20= > such that the absurdity of it serves to show the concept as wrong. =20 > Could you said cai then as a kind of way to say =93Oh yes extremely =20= > funny L=94 > > Lojban does offer a way to sort of say the quoted example but like =20 > any joke is ruined If you tell people the answer, sarcasm is ruined =20= > if you let on that it is sarcasm (other than through a condescending =20= > tone) --Apple-Mail-3--113893500 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The thing is, answering naicai = does not mean "absolutely not, and I shall that you never to mention it = in my presence again". It only says "absolutely not"

You might infer anger, but = for that you'd need to add some other attitudinals.

If you said "cai" that = would mean "absolutely" - the event is funny.

You could add je'unai to = mark that you don't really mean the cai, but that's kind of like = quoting.

I = guess sarcasm doesn't go so well in a language that is supposed to be = unambiguous. Humor, sarcasm, and irony. They all seem to depend on = ambiguities.

mu'o mi'e = ioAV

On Dec 9, 2007, at 11:13 PM, Alex Bruce = wrote:

My progress in lojban has = being slow going.

The flashcards I=92ve received I=92m making poor progress = on, as it stands I=92ve managed to learn maybe 10 selbri. I=92m getting = better with the structure of lojban but I can=92t seem to get the bulk = down.

I was thinking = maybe some exercises in translation would help. Does anyone have some = paragraphs or anything that translate well into = lojban?
Or maybe you have another strategy I = can use?

Also I=92m wondering about sarcasm, my favorite part of = communication.
An example in the beginners = guide goes like this:
.i .u'ipei do farlu le = pesxucould well be ru'e: = "Kinda..." Then again, it could also be : "Absolutely not, and I shall thank you never to = mention it in my presence again." (Allowing for some latitude in = translation...)
this I get, but the principle of sarcasm is to illustrate = something such that the absurdity of it serves to show the concept as = wrong. Could you said cai then as a kind of way to say =93Oh yes = extremely funny L=94
Lojban does offer a way to sort of say the quoted example but = like any joke is ruined If you tell people the answer, sarcasm is ruined = if you let on that it is sarcasm (other than through a condescending = tone)

= --Apple-Mail-3--113893500--