From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Dec 26 20:18:09 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:18:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J7kC4-0002ad-6E for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:18:09 -0800 Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.198.190]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J7kBd-0002aB-LX for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:17:56 -0800 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so2009236rvf.46 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:17:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=jQNbHsTX4sIirDfV9dL7T0Y8mYZ2j8XAaCNTHOTcGoU=; b=Q8/GC7gDQEf2io3pO8GQOXS53UEPlq1l8Mp162l8Sj5bkJ5VSNnu+GXk0D3ZMF5oWKpCqB3IUSaI1KsTYYTlpretKfXq2vf3kG1wpacko1DQNmoYBJaAoAJ/iHa1x/s+UlfzgcueV6FPO/rCxYjFuYeC8qpAWbdbXOA/6igfHt4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=v6UEnjS3K8JF2NJorTjBXIp6gGicfTrLc3GrpMxdb1YA6OIPr5JOjxDzwN4R0ejR3Sh6p1skcduBHpGzchypfKJxX58Zs3D9lbSfu+de62sUwYx/3xSvsQ7qDsJYr6nyiz0d6nGP0cpcK59olOobzUNPpAcjK82vZn29ULmUUTs= Received: by 10.141.178.5 with SMTP id f5mr3767183rvp.112.1198729038575; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:17:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.5.3 with HTTP; Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:17:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 23:17:18 -0500 From: "Matt Arnold" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Orthography In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 60 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Here is a forward of the other orthography thread that I have, which concerns an orthography based on a seven-segment display. -Eppcott Forwarded conversation Subject: Re: Orthography ------------------------ From: Matt Arnold Date: Sep 5, 2005 6:30 PM To: lojban-list@lojban.org I'm very enthusiastic about the LCD clock alphabet. John, obviously you've done a great deal of work in attempting to improve Brandon's orthography. I don't want to re-do that work, but I don't know binary. Is there a visual reference somewhere that can show the LCD characters next to the numbers you are using? If not, I'll figure it out and make a chart of it. -epkat ---------- From: John E Clifford Date: Sep 5, 2005 8:08 PM To: lojban-list@lojban.org Trying to do graphics in e-mail is a pain. Lets do terminology top (64) upper left(16) upper right (32) middle (8) lower left (2) lower right (4) bottom (1) with obvious abbreviations 1:1_ 2:2 | 3:1+2 |_ 4:4 | 5:1+4 _| 6:2+4 || 7:1+2+4 |_| 8:8 - 9:1+8 (and now the problems start) parallel horizontal lines 10:2+8 upper left corner 11:1+2+8 square C 12:4+8 upper right corner 13:1+4+8 square reversed C 14:2+4+8 square cap 15:1+2+4+8 square 16:16 | floating above the line 17: 1+16 16 with a base line separated below it 18:2+16 long left line (numeral 1 - one possibility) 19:1+2+16 L 20:4+16 high left line, low right 21:1+4+16 left line floating over lower right corner 22:2+4+16 long left line, short low right 23:1+2+4+16 square reversed J 24:8+16 floating lower left corner 25:1+8+16 24 floating over a base line 26:2+8+16 left T 27:1+2+8+16 inverted F 28:4+8+16 left-to-right zigzag 29:1+4+8+16 inverted square question mark 30:2+4+8+16 square h 31:1+2+4+8+16 square b (one possible numeral 6) 32:32 floating right line 33:1+32 32 over abase line 34:2+32 reverse of 20: low left, high right 35:1+2+32 line floating off from lower left corner 36:4+32 long right line (usual numeral 1) 37:1+4+32 reversed L 38:2+4+32 short left line, long right 39:1+2+4+32 square J 40:8+32 floating lower right corner 41:1+8+32 40 over a basee line 42:2+8+32 right to left zigzag 43:1+2+8+32 reversed inverted question mark 44:4+8+32 right T 45:1+4+8+32 inverted reversed F 46:2+4+8+32 reversed h 47:1+2+4+8+32 square d 48:16+32 floating parallel lines 49:1+16+32 floating over a base 50:2+16+32 long left floating short right 51:1+2+16+32 right floating over L 52:4+16+32 short floating left, long right 53:1+4+16+32 left floating over reversed L 54:2+4+16+32 parallel long lines 55:1+2+4+16+32 square U 56:8+16+32 floating cup and so on I hope this is enough for visualizing To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. ---------- From: Brandon Wirick Date: Sep 5, 2005 7:54 PM To: lojban-list@lojban.org All right, you've encouraged me to take this seriously and help to create a truly great digital/script orthography (I'll call it a DSO from here on out.) I worked some things out and I have some new ideas. For reference (in hex), --40-- 20--10 --08-- 04--02 --01-- I think for the sake of a clear, unambiguous digital readout, the first of the 0x7F to go would be those that don't span the entire space horizontally and vertically (0x24 and 0x12 look identical.) Also, I really like the idea of 0x40 flagging capital letters. I count 23 continous characters with values less than 0x40 (i.e. without the top bar.) Three of these are horizontally symetrical, leaving ten pairs of mirrored characters. Conveniently, there are 23 Roman letters in the Lojban alphabet. These 23 "lower-case" characters correspond to 23 "capitalized" characters with 0x40 added. I don't have time to draw it up right now, but I would recommend using 0x3E ('H') for {xy}, becuase it just fits; 0x3F (upside-down 'A') for {my} because that would fit nicely with {py} and {by}, the other bilabial consonants being assigned to 0x2F ('b') and 0x1F ('d') in either order; and 0x37 ('U') for {ny} because that would fit nicely with {ty} and {dy}, the other dental consonants, being assigned to 0x27 (which looks almost like 't') and 0x17 (which looks almost like 'd'). Conveniently, {ly} and {ry} are closer to dental plosives than any other plosives, so assigning them 0x25 ('L') and 0x13 (backawards 'L') makes sense. >From there, all characters greater than 0x30, as well as two characters that are not, go to the vowels, and all the other consonants need to find whichever leftover pairs make the most sense. I'm leaning towards making all the unvoiced consonants be greater than 0x20 and all the unvoiced consonants be less than 0x20, except for {xy}, although it would make {by} look like 'd' and {py} look like 'b'. As for {xy}, if Aleksej is right, even if it accidentally is pronounced voiced, it would count as {xy}. There are seven additional continous characters that would not be continuous if 0x40 were subtracted. These may be used to encode {denpa bu}, {slaka bu}, {y'y}, and even {ga'e y'y}. The script will have to take a more convoluted form of the digital characters, because some of those characters are hard to write with the fluid motion of the pen. Oh well; that's a totally creative task and a subject for another e-mail. mu'omi'e.uirik. ---------- From: Brandon Wirick Date: Sep 5, 2005 8:17 PM To: lojban-list@lojban.org Oops, I think I switched 32 with 16 and 4 with 2 from your convention. Our ideas are down in text, so anyone can refer to them when making a graphical model, but it's tough to visualize without seeing something. I'll get something up in a couple days. ---------- From: Matt Arnold Date: Sep 5, 2005 9:36 PM To: lojban-list@lojban.org No doubt this image has other problems, but I tried to visualize a DSO in which vowels were horizontally symmetrical. Also, in this version I eliminated the characters made of two unattached vertical lines because those were a pain to write with. The red characters represent the original characters which were replaced. Here's the link: http://www.nemorathwald.com/lojban/lcd_clock_alphabet.gif Currently I'm drawing a chart of all possible arrangements of segments that can be in one character. I believe, but am not sure, that they are in binary code order. After I upload it, I'd like somebody who understands binary to number them in The Gimp or some such image program so we can use John's numbering scheme and reference the chart. -epkat ---------- From: Brandon Wirick Date: Sep 5, 2005 9:59 PM To: lojban-list@lojban.org It certainly doesn't suck! Good idea on the vowels. Too bad it's impossible to do that with only connected characters. Maybe I can create an applet or something that generates orthographies from a hex string. That way we can all play around with orthographies and communicate along these lines: "Check out this orthography: 4FA39F6..." "Ooh, I like what you did with {ty} and {dy}, but I think it would be better if you did this: 4FA3C96..." I'll get on that soon, or if anyone else is itching to do it, be my guest. mu'omi'e.uirik. ---------- From: Matt Arnold Date: Sep 5, 2005 11:43 PM To: lojban-list@lojban.org I have attempted to make a chart in which I count in binary using LCD clock characters. http://www.nemorathwald.com/lojban/LCD_binary_chart.jpg Black represents on, blue represents off. There are a hundred and twenty eight, if you include zero, so that matches John's count. I'm fairly sure every possible way for it to light up is represented in this chart. Each of the seven strokes is to represent a digit in a binary number, and John described the scheme as follows: top, upper right, upper left, middle, lower right, lower left, bottom I would have numbered them but I don't know how to count in binary so I don't know if I've got them in the wrong order. Can somebody type out a comma-separated or space-separated list numbering them according to what each represents? For instance, unless I am mistaken, I think the first row is: 0 and the second row is: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ...I think. The last row is: 128 Then I'll remake the chart, numbered, and put it online. Then when we discuss changes to DSO we could just refer to a character by number and look it up to know what somebody's talking about. -epkat ---------- From: Matt Arnold Date: Sep 6, 2005 12:47 PM To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net John, where did you get this sequence for interpreting an LCD clock digit as binary? Top, upper right, upper left, middle, lower right, lower left, bottom. Is there a reference or source somewhere of a project that has been done in this area before? -Matt ---------- From: John E Clifford Date: Sep 6, 2005 1:01 PM To: lojban-list@lojban.org In my system (we really need to get these three together), the lines are 0 64 16 32 8 2 4 1 80 96 72 66 68 65 48 24 18 20 17 40 34 36 33 10 12 9 6 3 5 112 88 82 84 81 104 98 100 97 74 76 73 70 67 69 56 50 64 49 26 28 25 22 19 21 120 114 116 113 90 92 89 86 83 85 42 41 44 37 35 38 7 13 11 14 106 105 108 101 99 102 71 77 75 78 58 57 60 53 51 54 23 29 27 30 15 39 45 43 46 122 121 124 117 115 118 87 93 91 94 19 103 109 107 110 47 31 55 61 59 62 63 111 91 119 125 123 126 127 So far, suggestions are (Arnold, Brandon1, Brandon2 (incomplete), Clifford (many arbitrary)) a 62 45 - 59 A 124 109 - 123 b 31 31 47 31 c 43 43 - 43 d 26 26 39 26 e 15 27 - 61 E 79 97 - 125 f 39 42 - 42 g 27 22 - 83 i 7 39 - 39 I 71 103 - 103 j 29 29 - 29 k 45 38 - 101 l 19 19 19 19 m 64 33 63 27 n 30 17 55 45 o 63 46 - 46 O 127 110 - 110 p 47 47 31 47 r 37 37 37 37 s 42 41 - 108 t 44 44 23 44 u 55 23 - 23 U 119 87 - 87 v 23 28 - 28 x 41 34 62 62 y 57 30 - 30 Y 121 94 - 94 z 28 25 - 40 ' 25 20 – 16 (32) , 21 21 - 2 (4) . 35 35 – 5 (or 3) 1 - - - 36 (18) 2 - - - 107 3 - - - 109 4 - - - 60 5 - - - 93 6 - - - 95 7 - - - 100 8 - - - 127 9 - - - 125 0 - - - 119 ---------- From: John E Clifford Date: Sep 6, 2005 1:08 PM To: matt.mattarn@gmail.com I am sure there is a standard and what I used is what I remember it as being, but I have no reference for it -- and memory is for me not a vlaid source of knowledge. It is easy to imagine at lest three other systems that work as well and as "logically." ---------- From: Matt Arnold Date: Sep 6, 2005 1:26 PM To: lojban-list@lojban.org Awesome, thank you! I'll send a URL tonight with the revised chart. -epkat ---------- From: Matt Arnold Date: Sep 6, 2005 7:50 PM To: lojban-list@lojban.org Here's the complete chart of LCD characters in binary order. I'll make further revisions if you find errors. -epkat ---------- From: Christopher Zervic Date: Sep 7, 2005 11:37 AM To: lojban-list@lojban.org There already exists a standard notation for the segments of the seven-segment display (7SD), (which is really what we are talking about, not necessarily LED, LCD or even anything illuminated or electronic): A (top) B (upper right) C (lower right) D (bottom) E (lower left) F (upper left) G (middle) and the '8th segment' = DP (decimal point) 1 = BC 2 = ABDEG 3 = ABCDG 4 = BCFG 5 = ACDFG 6 = ACDEFG 7 = ABC 8 = ABCDEFG 9 = ABCDFG 0 = ABCDEF So far I like what I read in this thread, although it remains yet to see whether it proves to be practical, since Lojban already has perfect orthographic mapping. Nevertheless the suggested alphabet could draw inspiration from the Shaw Alphabet (q.v.), and be practical for English as well. -- Christopher Zervic, Esq. ---------- From: Matt Arnold Date: Sep 7, 2005 1:18 PM To: lojban-list@lojban.org Thanks Christopher. Can you direct me to reference material about this? I'm especially appreciative for the term 7SD, since I didn't like any of the phrases I was using to name it. However, as long as we have a chart which works for us to communicate with each other while selecting characters, and the numbers we use will not be included in the finished orthography, I don't think it's sufficiently important to remake the chart. -epkat ---------- From: Christopher Zervic Date: Sep 7, 2005 2:06 PM To: lojban-list@lojban.org In Wikipedia under Seven-Segment Display is a good place to start. I do not know of a standard way of representing all of the possible characters, so the chart does carry some utility. -- ---------- From: John E Clifford Date: Sep 8, 2005 11:22 AM To: lojban-list@lojban.org Yeah, there is no real need for yet another way of writing Lojban, even a another way that is only for Lojban. People have shown how to write Lojban in just about every known alphabet (I don't recall a cuneiform version but I expect it is out there somewhere) and it at least three more or less developed novel alphabets. No advantages over the latin alphabet we use has been demonstrated. But they are intersting design projects in their own right. Sorry about misremembering the order of segments in 7-segment displays. I think that my ordering came from the ordering in 11- and 15-segment displays (roughly contemporay with 7 and 14 and 16 and, even more than they obliterated by 7-pin dot matrices). Those displays had either xs in each small box or a diamond in the whole (or in each box for the 15) and the xs were each either two segments or four. If you drop those box fillers out the remaining seven lines were -- I am pretty damned sure -- ordered as I gave it. Below are (for the record) the equivalences between the official and this muddled version (I put the binarization of the official version in parentheses). 1 D (8) A (64) 64 2 E (4) AB (96) 96 3 DE (12) ABC (112) 100 4 C (16) ---------- From: Matt Arnold Date: Sep 8, 2005 3:06 PM To: lojban-list@lojban.org My personal reason is that I want to decorate faux-ancient artifacts from an extinct advanced civilization with a strange and alien advanced language. For instance, I intend to have a little translation session at the next Penguicon to entice fans of Stargate into Lojban, in which we decipher a series of glyphs carved in a plaque. -epkat ---------- From: John E Clifford Date: Sep 8, 2005 3:51 PM To: lojban-list@lojban.org OK, "no reason intrinsic to the Lojban project." There are probably several (and this one is interesting) reason for doing new alphabets, including for the Hell of it. ---------- From: Brandon Wirick Date: Sep 8, 2005 6:52 PM To: lojban-list@lojban.org That is certainly my reason for doing this. I would admit that it is just flat out fun if that didn't ostracize me from the world, save the 99th percentile of geekdom.