From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Dec 27 05:45:19 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 27 Dec 2007 05:45:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J7t30-0000go-WC for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 27 Dec 2007 05:45:19 -0800 Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.198.187]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J7t2t-0000fn-8t for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 27 Dec 2007 05:45:18 -0800 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so2150562rvf.46 for ; Thu, 27 Dec 2007 05:45:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=4oB3THGSDhJbYhUpiUVrbHMIiB4JJ+FMPCOEDPamr7U=; b=jDSlW8JSSr0LY/M+nmpu7TNt5wxTEu8k2MyQIDCYyGRVxa7agxrvF1k/uvttYk1TjoA5oJmLXy05ziff1wN32TzjxHGenPIkUKIzTmMtFa+4m/YTuUHFXArUOjsKyChEprij8mO8BWBWs/Ey6HBxdWq6+xAD+JHFwyf3xq5Q1fA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=kM1YHu1U/Vk8KqQ+2d8/PQt1/D2wx3/hMwh2B9uGNwmhtoytuN05ClSLk0CIY8CIeUPRGJ9u4sYo7sLHqTelfPn0DEZvW8mR1DFfpARyLVUT4Ei0ICcVt82MC3azLqZwf4RKG7tkLIwkZkhguKJFlK9HQW/tenlFgdqZocBF/Ag= Received: by 10.140.193.16 with SMTP id q16mr4036474rvf.109.1198763105030; Thu, 27 Dec 2007 05:45:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.202.21 with HTTP; Thu, 27 Dec 2007 05:45:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <96f789a60712270545i768881c5gbe7d63d09f984698@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 08:45:04 -0500 From: "Michael Turniansky" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: nitcu le denpa lerfu fi ma In-Reply-To: <925d17560712261306m41afa466qc1d4d205b41fdb3@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_9400_1087338.1198763105024" References: <20071225195037.f1affe0bd44gssgs@webmail.ixkey.info> <925d17560712260754o2e6b28a6p4e412e1e6809e19d@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60712260856o1f283b81ma8c640e5779a546c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712260922q26dd6069r4eb8b60b60ad7c8d@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60712261013k36624c44m8685ee8a6f32ffb7@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712261026k1617e941nee01e2d0d41d115c@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60712261136q415cc5caw3a54a200711f30fe@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712261220m1a3a5a7ft98f7037b5b4aeccf@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60712261249g3994ac48l2f3754a576875610@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712261306m41afa466qc1d4d205b41fdb3@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 63 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_9400_1087338.1198763105024 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Dec 26, 2007 4:06 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > On Dec 26, 2007 5:49 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote= : > > > > Maybe it's the particular example that's causing my point to not be > > understood.. .let's try this -- > > > > mi nelci lo nu pinxe la'o .ie. melo .ielo .ie sodva (intending to mean > "I > > like to drink Mello Yello soda".) > > (You would need {me} in frnt of {la'o}, besides a different delimiter.) > True. What I had, while still grammatical, was "I like an (event-of-drinking-Mello-Yello) type of soda" But please, doin't get bogge= d down in the minutiae of semantics. The question here is one of parsing. > > > Now, since we paused before the Yello in > > speech, it is interpreted identically to "mi nelci lo nu pinxe la'o .ie > melo > > .ie lo .ie sodva" (since there is no need to pause after the unquote. > > Correct. > > > This > > has the meaning of "I like to drink "Mello" out of a soda" > > Hence, the need for the restriction. > > {ielo} is parsed as two words {ie} and {lo} so it cannot be quoted using > the words {ie} nor {lo} as delimiters. > ienaicai! The whole point of la'o is that NOTHING is parsed inside of the quoted string. It's foreign. You can use sounds and tones that don't exis= t in lojban and, yes, even pauses in the middle of words. That's why the ONL= Y thing that resumes the lojbanic parsing is the close quote, which is the pause and the identical sounds used at the beginning. Everything is a black box as far as lojban is concerned, and the whole la'o X Y X just =3D"[some non-lojban name]" But I guess we're going around in circles, here= . I understand your point. It's IF we were parsing inside the la'o quote, so that "cmavo" would fall off the front of words that would be considered gismu, lujvo, fu'ivla or cmavo clusters, then we can't use those as guard words, and using cmevla as guard words is okay, too, since if they were to be interpreted as guard words, they would have to have a pause AFTER them a= s well. Simliar reasoning applies to using brivla as guard words, I suppose, too (I haven't worked out all the permutations). But I contend none of thi= s is germaine because we are NOT parsing inside the la'o except lsitening for a pause and the sounds. The grammar says ya can't put the sound (or string if written) anywhere in the quoted string, and I'm holding to that. I thin= k this discussion has reached an end, and certainly any more would not belong on the beginner's list {jaireicnz} is parsed as one word, so it can be quoted with any word except > for the word {jaireicnz} itself. The words {jai}, {rei}, even {reicnz} ar= e > all > available as delimiters. Even if they wouldn't be the clearest choices, > they > would be accepted by the parser and don't cause ambiguity. > > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > --gejyspa ------=_Part_9400_1087338.1198763105024 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline

On Dec 26, 2007 4:06 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDa= s <jjllambias@gmail.com> = wrote:
On Dec 26, 2007 5:49 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:>
>   Maybe it's the particular example that's causi= ng my point to not be
> understood.. .let's try this --
>
> mi nelci lo nu= pinxe la'o .ie. melo .ielo .ie  sodva (intending to mean "I<= br>> like to drink Mello Yello soda".)

(You would need= {me} in frnt of {la'o}, besides a different delimiter.)
  True.  What I= had, while still grammatical, was "I like an (event-of-drinking-Mello= -Yello) type of soda"  But please, doin't get bogged down in = the minutiae of semantics. The question here is one of parsing.=20

> Now, since we paused before the Yello in
> sp= eech, it is interpreted identically to "mi nelci lo nu pinxe la'o = .ie melo
> .ie lo .ie sodva" (since there is no need to pause after the = unquote.

Correct.

> This
&g= t; has the meaning of "I like to drink "Mello" out of a <= agrrement> soda"
> Hence, the need for the restriction.

{ielo} is parsed= as two words {ie} and {lo} so it cannot be quoted using
the words {ie} = nor {lo} as delimiters.


  ienaicai! The w= hole point of la'o is that NOTHING is parsed inside of the quoted strin= g.  It's foreign.  You can use sounds and tones that don'= t exist in lojban and, yes,  even pauses in the middle of words. That&= #39;s why the ONLY thing that resumes the lojbanic parsing is the close quo= te, which is the pause and the  identical sounds used at the beginning= .  Everything is a black box as far as lojban is concerned, and the wh= ole la'o X Y X just =3D"[some non-lojban name]" But I guess w= e're going around in circles, here.  I understand your point. = ; It's IF we were parsing inside the la'o quote, so that "cmav= o" would fall off the front of words that would be considered gismu, l= ujvo, fu'ivla or cmavo clusters, then we can't use those as guard w= ords, and  using cmevla as guard words is okay, too, since if they wer= e to be interpreted as guard words, they would have to have a pause AFTER t= hem as well. Simliar reasoning applies to using brivla as guard words, I su= ppose, too (I haven't worked out all the permutations).  But I con= tend none of this is germaine because we are NOT parsing inside the la'= o except lsitening for a pause and the sounds.  The grammar says ya ca= n't put the sound (or string if written) anywhere in the quoted string,= and I'm holding to that.  I think this discussion has reached an = end, and certainly any more would not belong on the beginner's list

{ja= ireicnz} is parsed as one word, so it can be quoted with any word except for the word {jaireicnz} itself. The words {jai}, {rei}, even {reicnz} are = all
available as delimiters. Even if they wouldn't be the clearest c= hoices, they
would be accepted by the parser and don't cause ambigui= ty.
&nb= sp;

mu'o mi'e xorxes
    &nb= sp;              --gejyspa
 
=

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