From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Dec 27 06:27:57 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 27 Dec 2007 06:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J7tiH-0002cW-HC for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 27 Dec 2007 06:27:57 -0800 Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.153]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J7tiD-0002cK-3A for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 27 Dec 2007 06:27:57 -0800 Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so1494784fga.0 for ; Thu, 27 Dec 2007 06:27:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=siBT8JBjjJpaZbwcqK5k8UdgDbd3hQSpuaK15T/ATtU=; b=xFEJ4eelwIreznN3ss6JfcxPCysfsjEsR8f0ErV7CfLIkpn6hghPEFxRX1mnjy9btzykae/spFgn2hPYBTvdpyJGFfqsIEKMaX5JxjS0HoAKL/qIgSTG6jWZWeEOZYaUpiPSHJ4Ip4ALmgxYo1lVfolonLvk+sLbfGNDvkMHG9o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=n0E2V5kb4Y42GeBQsCXP+8ihTdb/ASZay8j8OhVUsSapKcxU5Do/XbYeRUw+10bi3oWO2mYJ/A+kgXE2E5tNweUH5fCdwH3OeBBilSxKu8Ynv1Tdi81QLqP5vDXm+eJ0ICVJ8B2+1SlSIYbxGooaI/CxA0Q8PvCDkRvkL8V8BV0= Received: by 10.86.36.11 with SMTP id j11mr7854373fgj.34.1198765670741; Thu, 27 Dec 2007 06:27:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.86.13 with HTTP; Thu, 27 Dec 2007 06:27:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560712270627y3dcbe488v87424d3c6edb8565@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:27:50 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: nitcu le denpa lerfu fi ma In-Reply-To: <96f789a60712270545i768881c5gbe7d63d09f984698@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20071225195037.f1affe0bd44gssgs@webmail.ixkey.info> <96f789a60712260856o1f283b81ma8c640e5779a546c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712260922q26dd6069r4eb8b60b60ad7c8d@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60712261013k36624c44m8685ee8a6f32ffb7@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712261026k1617e941nee01e2d0d41d115c@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60712261136q415cc5caw3a54a200711f30fe@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712261220m1a3a5a7ft98f7037b5b4aeccf@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60712261249g3994ac48l2f3754a576875610@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712261306m41afa466qc1d4d205b41fdb3@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60712270545i768881c5gbe7d63d09f984698@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 64 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Dec 27, 2007 10:45 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > ienaicai! The whole point of la'o is that NOTHING is parsed inside of the > quoted string. It's foreign. You can use sounds and tones that don't exist > in lojban and, yes, even pauses in the middle of words. What do you mean by "is not parsed"? Its syntax is not parsed, but its morphology necessarily has to be treated by the parser. The parser has to identify each unit of input either as one of the Lojban phonemes or as a non-Lojban character/sound. > That's why the ONLY > thing that resumes the lojbanic parsing is the close quote, which is the > pause and the identical sounds used at the beginning. Everything is a > black box as far as lojban is concerned, and the whole la'o X Y X just > ="[some non-lojban name]" That's the semantics, yes, but we are discussing a more basic stage, identifying X, Y and then X again. > But I guess we're going around in circles, here. > I understand your point. It's IF we were parsing inside the la'o quote, so > that "cmavo" would fall off the front of words that would be considered > gismu, lujvo, fu'ivla or cmavo clusters, then we can't use those as guard > words, and using cmevla as guard words is okay, too, since if they were to > be interpreted as guard words, they would have to have a pause AFTER them as > well. Simliar reasoning applies to using brivla as guard words, I suppose, > too (I haven't worked out all the permutations). Yes, any word can be used as delimiter, be it cmavo, brivla or cmevla. The only exception is the "word" {y}, although I think it is better not to think of it as a word. > But I contend none of this > is germaine because we are NOT parsing inside the la'o except lsitening for > a pause and the sounds. I think you are not treating lexing as part of "parsing", but the Lojban parser has to deal both with morphology and syntax. The method you are thinking of requires that you can't do the lexing independently of the syntax. You need to know that you are within a ZOI-quote and do lexing stuff differently than if you were outside. That's fine for humans, because we do mix syntax and lexing together, but it's much more complicated from the fomal grammar point of view. > The grammar says ya can't put the sound (or string > if written) anywhere in the quoted string, and I'm holding to that. That's what CLL says, yes. We don't have an official full formal grammar yet, so it may happen that we end up having something like that officialized too, but I doubt it because it is much more complicated than doing the lexing indpendently of the syntax. In fact the formal grammars that appear in CLL take for granted that the lexing has already been resolved independently of the syntax. > I think > this discussion has reached an end, and certainly any more would not belong > on the beginner's list We can continue somewhere else if you want, I enjoy these discussions and they are in fact issues that will have to be decided at some point. mu'o mi'e xorxes