From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Dec 30 11:09:57 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 30 Dec 2007 11:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J93Xo-00034m-Vt for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 11:09:57 -0800 Received: from squid17.laughingsquid.net ([72.32.93.144]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J93Xg-00034V-Fy for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 11:09:56 -0800 Received: (qmail 7832 invoked by uid 48); 30 Dec 2007 11:09:38 -0800 Received: from c-24-63-92-33.hsd1.ma.comcast.net (c-24-63-92-33.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.63.92.33]) by webmail.ixkey.info (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 11:09:38 -0800 Message-ID: <20071230110938.lvwyvup5kwsc04g4@webmail.ixkey.info> Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 11:09:38 -0800 From: mungojelly@ixkey.info To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: confusing gismus References: <2f91285f0712300908l379651c5o91cde87e8b81960e@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2f91285f0712300908l379651c5o91cde87e8b81960e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.1.4) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 88 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mungojelly@ixkey.info Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Quoting Vid Sintef : > mi'e vid coi doi vid. > Some gismus are confusing to me. Are you really confused? Or do you just wish they weren't so similar to each other? ;) Speaking as someone who came to Lojban after the gismu list was established, I find that it's redundant in places & thin in others, but I'm sure that's more or less unavoidable anyway, and on the whole it seems to work alright. > dicra (x1 (event) interrupts/stops/halts/[disrupts] x2 > (object/event/process) due to quality x3) > zunti (x1 (evt./state) interferes with/hinders/disrupts x2 > (evt./state/process) due to quality x3 (ka)) > > le nu le mamta cu sanga cu dicra le nu le bersa cu tadni kei le ka cladu > le nu le mamta cu sanga cu zunti le nu le bersa cu tadni kei le ka cladu I would say that in the case of "dicra" the studying has been halted by the singing, but in the case of "zunti" the singing is interfering with the studying, but not necessarily stopping it. > spaji (x1 (event/action abstract) surprises/startles/is unexpected > [and generally sudden] to x2) > jenca (x1 (event) shocks/stuns x2) > > le nu le mlatu cu morsi binxo cu spaji le nixli > le nu le mlatu cu morsi binxo cu jenca le nixli Here I would say the difference is that "spaji" is about the suddenness of the event, or more precisely the reaction of surprise to the event (perhaps you could suddenly react to something which had been sneaking up on you gradually). A surprising event might often cause shock, but also could cause a different reaction, like an immediate violent response. > sumne (x1 (experiencer) smells/scents (transitive verb) x2; x2 > smells/has odor/scent to observer x1) > panci (x1 is an odor/fragrance/scent/smell emitted by x2 and detected > by observer/sensor x3) > > le xrula cu pluka se sumne le mamta > le xrula cu pluka se panci fi le mamta Hmm, I don't think I've ever considered this pair before. I suppose the difference must have to do with the extra place of "panci". The relationship of "sumne" is a direct relationship between a smeller and something they're smelling, whereas with "panci" we have a relationship between the thing which is emitting the scent, the scent itself which is wafting, and the smeller which it finally reaches. My sense of the distinction being made here is between something which has a scent in the sense that you can pick it up and put it right to your nose and smell it-- an apple-- vs something which is emitting a scent which can be picked up from far away-- a baking apple pie. It's not a distinction English makes, but it seems like a useful one to me. :) > cecla (x1 launches/fires/shoots projectile/missile x2, propelled by x3 > [propellant/propulsion]) > danti (x1 is a ballistic projectile [e.g. bullet/missile] for firing > by [gun/propelling launcher] x2) > > le se cecla be ti cu barda > le danti be ti cu barda Hmm, after a moment of thought I realized there's a substantial difference here: In the relationship of "cecla" the launching is actually happening! That is, a bullet in a box is only a "danti" until it's fired out of a gun and becomes also a "se cecla"! > mluni (x1 is a satellite/moon orbiting x2 with characteristics x3, > orbital parameters x4) > lunra (x1 is Earth's moon (default); x1 is a major natural > satellite/moon of planet x2) A "mluni" includes just about anything that orbits a planet, including I believe man-made satellites and so forth. A "lunra" is only a very substantial satellite, such as our moon. > molki (x1 is a mill/foundry/industrial plant/[assembly line] > performing process x2) > fanri (x1 is a factory/foundry/industrial plant/mill producing x2 from > materials x3) I'm not sure about this one, but it seems like a "molki" doesn't necessarily produce a tangible product? > zalvi (x1 [individual or mass of hard surfaces] > grinds/pulverizes/crushes x2 into powder x3) > marxa (x1 [force] mashes/crushes/squashes/smashes x2 into > pulp/mash/crumbs/deformed mass x3) These are just slightly different in method, intent & result. To "zalvi" you need something hard which can be crushed into dust. For "marxa" you can take anything and squish it into any deformed shape. > skapi (x1 is a pelt/skin/hide/leather from x2) > pilka (x1 is a crust/rind/peel/skin/hide/outer cover of x2) Here "skapi" is a subset of "pilka", I would say. There's just a special word for the "pilka" of an animal. I think with words like "skapi" and "lunra" you must allow that Lojban is not intended to avoid having a *human* bias. ;) mu'o mi'e doi bret.