From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Jan 01 17:50:57 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:50:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J9sky-0006GR-Cm for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:50:57 -0800 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.180]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J9skt-0006G8-6w for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:50:55 -0800 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id m16so7899702waf.20 for ; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:50:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=WrCxbJyKESLIyWdEYM0nqU+8NwpYEX/2Lp2LQg8df8s=; b=G9/pSFXWcSE2PNV2qyWk9WIoQTnoydoPE/W8c2A/kU+Nz1AlXxzaVwO9Zwt2E3NVltbZIgm7KHeYPfrJiW+sWijw4ApLk/yQ5zUpurKFbzgBfUph/bOvN2FDHutvNsxtwzRIjGmqgC34dO2vZ7A2fIWazSItiMwiNZpH7dyk+pU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Rhz13sHW2wgxVxSVLDZFTD28X0MMGabQMvVdeEjpR739y3upQp2H5JR+garppxOCSuoFzSAfMKIud/TKKsSXu8qaElMrIa8tnYCOqNCihfZLviw8CWcScN2yxZvo85vEZuADUxsUwd2XYR6wjd1NXB5aQUZWSoheupsJXjhN0gk= Received: by 10.114.27.20 with SMTP id a20mr14961377waa.101.1199238647866; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:50:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.135.9 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:50:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2f91285f0801011750h7ace100dv2e81237251d05909@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 02:50:47 +0100 From: "Vid Sintef" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: di'e gimsnu be zo xanka, was Re: the black hole of keyworditis In-Reply-To: <925d17560801011409p69d64c0cnca55f9810a51c17e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0712300908l379651c5o91cde87e8b81960e@mail.gmail.com> <20071230144732.4i70hzzqosk4ogcs@webmail.ixkey.info> <925d17560712310340j7a5cdf55l639a87dc1afd6c59@mail.gmail.com> <20071231134734.tgxeg0ra8gsoowko@webmail.ixkey.info> <4779CF45.2040709@lojban.org> <20071231234906.p1i1u6qigww4osso@webmail.ixkey.info> <96f789a60801010503r3132c8d1w127278d2545b1fc4@mail.gmail.com> <20080101091514.wxpdnp7aqskkkw04@webmail.ixkey.info> <96f789a60801011016q4eec42e6p409490f982c694ab@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560801011409p69d64c0cnca55f9810a51c17e@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 113 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: picos.picos@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners > Let's consider {ko'a nau ca'a xanka ko'e ko'i}: "ko'a is here-and-now > actually nervous about ko'e under conditions ko'i" > > ko'a has to be a person (or some other entity capable of being > nervous) and we are claimig that that person is here-and-now > actually nervous. No problem there. > > ko'e is an event, and that event is making ko'a nervous. It may be > an event that is actually happening, or it may be a potential event, > since both types of event are capable of making people nervous. > No problem there either. We could specify {lo nu ca'a broda} > {lo nu po'u broda} if it's not clear whether the event is actual or > merely potential. Mary could be here-an-now nervous about > actually having been caught, or about being caught eventually. > > But what is ko'i? Is it an event that is contributing to make ko'a > nervous, i.e. one without which ko'a would not be nervous, or is > it just a description of the here-and-now cirumstances, that > which happens to be the case in the background but is not > contributing to make ko'a nervous? > > Neither option is very satisfying. If it's just the background, why > is it such an important information that it needs to be part of > the place structure? Most gismu don't have an "under conditons" > place and yet all events happen under some background > circumstances. > > If it's a necessary condition for ko'a being nervous, then how > is x3 different from x2? Why do we need to split that which > is making ko'a nervous into two separate bits? > > > mu'o mi'e xorxes IMHO, x3 might be information about x1's mental/psychological condition. An individual's susceptibility to his/her circumstances can change occasionally, which will then influence their either internal or external behaviour. The state of being nervous is a mental event, which is routed in one's own psychology, which is generally subject to fluctuation. (The quality of) Mary's being nervous of the police, for example, is conditional. If she is heavily drunken or drugged, she may not react to tu'a loi pulji in an usual/anticipated way. Or, she may be nervous because of some particular epistemological background that is worth mentioning. Some possibilities are: la meris no'e xanka le nu selkavbu loi pulji kei le nu vo'a ca xumsenva la meris xanka le nu selkavbu loi pulji kei le nu vo'a djuno le du'u le tolselfla gasnu cu ji'o vamji makau la meris xanka le nu selkavbu lei pulji kei le nu vo'a pensi genai tu'a lo flalu gi le du'u py ka'e mutce vilgau vi le briju mu'o mi'e vid