From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Jan 22 07:50:29 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JHLOO-0004VP-AW for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:50:29 -0800 Received: from express.cec.wustl.edu ([128.252.21.16]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JHLOJ-0004Uo-4k for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:50:27 -0800 Received: from grid.cec.wustl.edu (grid.cec.wustl.edu [128.252.20.97]) by express.cec.wustl.edu (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0MFoEwb008336; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:50:14 -0600 (CST) Received: by grid.cec.wustl.edu (Postfix, from userid 29287) id 805EF68040; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:50:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grid.cec.wustl.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7323D6803F; Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:50:09 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:50:09 -0600 (CST) From: adam@wustl.edu To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: zo .e'e In-Reply-To: <925d17560801071444k71b98c50h38879b1c9451ba3e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <20080105225008.k2wyw47jywwowc44@webmail.ixkey.info> <925d17560801060549r667c5c87kcdbf542852bce09d@mail.gmail.com> <20080107141153.pki44f5eassogwc4@webmail.ixkey.info> <925d17560801071444k71b98c50h38879b1c9451ba3e@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.00 (LRH 882 2007-12-20) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-58695404-1010246684-1201017009=:20405" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. X-archive-position: 278 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: adam@wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ---58695404-1010246684-1201017009=:20405 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by express.cec.wustl.edu id m0MFoEwb008336 I'd just like to point out that the definitions being discussed here (particularly the .e'e and .e'i) are very far from official. They're par= t of a BPFK checkpoint that hasn't be approved, and with the changes, they're likely not to be approved. So take them with a grain of salt. On Mon, 7 Jan 2008, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > On Jan 7, 2008 7:11 PM, wrote: >> >> OK, so ".e'e" isn't a feeling of being confident, it's a feeling that >> someone is capable (possibly yourself). > > I would put it as "showing an attitude of encouragement or exhortation"= , > rather than "feeling" anything, just as I wouldn't say {e'a} is a feeli= ng of > permissiveness, or {e'u} a feeling of suggestiveness, or {e'o} a > "feeling of request". > > Attitudinals often can be used to express feelings, but then again > it is not always feelings that they express. > >> How about ".ei"? I had been thinking it's your own obligation, can it >> be someone else's? > > In my understanding, {ei} is used to indicate not anyone's obligation, > but how the speaker feels things ought to be. For example: > > ei lo forca cu pritu lo palta > The fork ought to go to the right of the plate. > > That's obviously not an oblgation of the fork, nor directly of any pers= on. > But when there is an agent involved, expressing how things ought to > be is very close to expressing an obigation of the agent: > > ei la djan klama le zarci > It ought to be the case that John goes to the market. > John ought to go to the market. > >> Or is that what ".e'i" means, that someone is >> "constrained"/obligated to do something? > > I undestand "e'i", in the light of the e-series roughly corresponding > to the imperative mood, as imposing an obligation: > > e'i la djan klama le zarci > Let John go to the market. > > (Not "let" in the sense of "allow", but English is not very good with t= hird > person imperatives.) > > So: > > e'a: grant permission > e'e: give encouragement > e'i: impose an obligation > e'o: pose a request > e'u: offer a suggestion > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > --=20 Adam Lopresto System Administrator Engineering IT, Washington University ---58695404-1010246684-1201017009=:20405--