From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Feb 07 07:31:58 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 08 Feb 2008 10:48:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JN8jE-0001gv-Vg for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 07:31:57 -0800 Received: from express.cec.wustl.edu ([128.252.21.16]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JN8j7-0001d5-PM for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 07:31:55 -0800 Received: from grid.cec.wustl.edu (grid.cec.wustl.edu [128.252.20.97]) by express.cec.wustl.edu (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m17FVPK3018212; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:31:25 -0600 (CST) Received: by grid.cec.wustl.edu (Postfix, from userid 29287) id 79BD568040; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:31:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grid.cec.wustl.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1796803F; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:31:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:31:20 -0600 (CST) From: "Adam D. Lopresto" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: bridi into a cmene In-Reply-To: <585263.44124.qm@web27711.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <585263.44124.qm@web27711.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.00 (LRH 882 2007-12-20) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-58695404-175370734-1202398280=:22061" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. X-archive-position: 332 X-Approved-By: jkominek@miranda.org X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: adam@pubcrawler.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ---58695404-175370734-1202398280=:22061 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by express.cec.wustl.edu id m17FVPK3018212 On Thu, 7 Feb 2008, Isen hand wrote: > Can I turn a bridi into a cmene? What I would like to do is take a nam= e, in > this case =E2=80=9CPuerto Rican Independence Party=E2=80=9D , and make = that a name in > lojban. I can make a bridi out of that: > > > .i le jecta sutra cu sarji le zifre pe le rifgregu=E2=80=99e To me, "Puerto Rican Independence Party" doesn't feel like a bridi (a predicate), it feels like a sumti (a noun). Your translation ends up something like "The governmental speedster supports free things associate= d with Puerto Rico". In general, there are two kinds of names in Lojban, which some of the learning materials confusingly conflate (calling everything cmene). The = kind you seem to be familiar with are {cmevla}, which always end in vowels (an= d have a few other constraints). Those can be handy, but it's important to realize that they're arbitrary, and don't mean anything. On the other hand, it's perfect possible to use a bridi-tail as a cmene. Examples given in the book include things like {la cribe} for a person na= med "bear". That's the approach I would use for something like this. la sarji be lo ka la rifgregu'e cu zifre Now, what if we wanted to translate a name that really is a bridi, like "Elephants Dream" (lo xanto cu senva). I'd probably use an abstraction o= f some sort, la su'u lo xanto cu senva > Would this work: > > la jectas sutras cu sarjis le zifres pe le rifgregug ? No. For one thing, you're trying to use cmevla, which probably isn't the right thing here. But you're also mixing in cmavo ({cu}, {le}, etc), and don't do that. --=20 Adam Lopresto http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/ A cynic is a man who, when he smells flowers, looks around for a coffin. --H.L. Mencken ---58695404-175370734-1202398280=:22061--