From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Mar 01 12:28:26 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 01 Mar 2008 12:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JVYJk-0007KF-JP for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 01 Mar 2008 12:28:25 -0800 Received: from grendel.dealloc.org ([213.133.97.204]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JVYJf-0007Js-75 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sat, 01 Mar 2008 12:28:24 -0800 Received: by grendel.dealloc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C0DF439C361; Sat, 1 Mar 2008 21:27:20 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 21:27:20 +0100 From: mublin To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: la jufra karni Message-ID: <20080301202720.GA30441@grendel.dealloc.org> References: <574523.66819.qm@web62515.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <200803010826.04106.phma@phma.optus.nu> <925d17560803010816y1be8410ar9781db5cae0c632@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <925d17560803010816y1be8410ar9781db5cae0c632@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 393 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mublin@dealloc.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Friday 29 February 2008 23:35, Liam Dalton wrote: > da'i lo nu le besna po nanmu cu nenri jufti'e gi te ckape lo > jufti'emlixai? On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 10:26 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > The sentence should begin {ganai da'i} On Sat, Mar 01, 2008 at 01:16:34PM -0300, Jorge Llambías wrote: > ge da'i lo besna be lo remna cu nenri lo jmati'e gi xu te ckape lo > jmarixmlixai I don't see the need for a logical connective here, because ckape already has a place for the conditions under which something is dangerous. Liam's original translation probably wanted to use this place too, as it has the form {lonu broda cu te ckape...}. Also IMHO the question is rhetoric, maybe an attitudinal is more appropriate here than xu? I'd propose the following translation: .i lo nu da'i lo besna be lo remna cu nenri lo ri jmati'e cu te ckape ra lo jmarixmlixai .iepei The hypothetical event of a brain of a human being being inside her heels is a perilous condition for her, potentially causing kibes, do you agree? Under the condition that a human's brain were inside her heels, would she not be in danger of kibes? As to the {ganai da'i...gi}, I would like to add the following two thoughts to xorxes' comment: 1. {ganai...gi} "Either not-A or B" is rarely a correct analysis of English "if A then B". In this particular case, the bridi is trivially true, because the antecedent "A man's brain is in his heels" is false. 2. {ganai da'i} in this construction seems to do the wrong thing: It assumes that a man's brain is NOT in his heels {ga da'i lo besna na nenri lo jmati'e gi...}. We should be assuming the exact opposite. -- mu'o mi'e mublin.