From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Mar 31 10:32:35 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 31 Mar 2008 10:32:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JgNs3-00010m-Gl for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 31 Mar 2008 10:32:35 -0700 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.190]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JgNrr-00010c-Pa for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 31 Mar 2008 10:32:35 -0700 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 4so727892nfv.46 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2008 10:32:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=SYF/6OsyIOAofkIHAvgbChrnxip3Er405/iNYfbzFpU=; b=ZIBr7OcNNPE35Ae9vf/pVIWq7Eo1dDG34ABEviWubs8uW1Z4fTmAyBjLufRra5GHEKZLT97JL9Y8JA/rCZAvA2DMBv+q8M0xbye3EcuqkjYpx9w8FzdZxOETuyszV3qSSeGpKWuKf2GP6aWOknILdeE56kWwGvS+lIdj8Y6vi5Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=G1NHh1o8v0oejb/dhH13tHW+xMJkKvqKl8hTD2EZi2x4LyAvf6bjgNo05JL/u/LIvrcfx+Z6G95Vo3ykZN4x0Qpr6Ryrg0EmM6iiUk7tAi8C9Q5thb0bgs5/LnXri/mP0JMKRwoBc9Mtv3H2Wp7sm9RhHzlSDD0IIJKAe6z/lBs= Received: by 10.78.170.6 with SMTP id s6mr22075861hue.75.1206984738890; Mon, 31 Mar 2008 10:32:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.118.10 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Mar 2008 10:32:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:32:18 +0100 From: "james riley" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Picture book In-Reply-To: <96f789a60803310921w5447b09eo5b0cc347d323b4b9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_24474_6453553.1206984738796" References: <96f789a60803310921w5447b09eo5b0cc347d323b4b9@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 403 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jimr1603@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_24474_6453553.1206984738796 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ki'esai gejyspa On 31/03/2008, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:49 AM, james riley wrote: > > Hey all. As some as of you know, I completed my translation of a public > > domain picture book. You can find it here. http://cukta.bravehost.com/ > > Project gutenberg has plenty of children's books that can be translated. > > Chances are that a few errors remain. You know that I can be found here > or > > in #lojban. Also, the mouseover text has not been translated. If you > can't > > tell what the picture was supposed to be (and it is old enough to be out > of > > copyright) then just mouseover. Sometimes I oversimplified, sometimes > went a > > bit too complicated. > > > > > Well-done. > > I have a few (okay, apparently a lot) comments/suggestions to make > things a bit closer to the original. Yes, I know that's a "boy" in > the original, but if any modern day boy was dressed like that, I think > someone would want a long talk with their parents Yes, pink used to be the boy's colour. I've changed it to the generic "child". :-D .... On the > references of your last sentence: "grute" is way too general for > grape. As lojban.org is down right now, I don't know if there is > currently a specific word for grapes, but even selvanju might be a > better choice than just grute. I was trying to keep compound words out of the first section. But fair enough. The building you have called a "dinju" > (church in the original) should be a "malsi". Yes, incentive to learn more vocab on my part. And come on, three > "xrula" and _seven_ pictures simply idenitified as "cipni"? Some > fu'ivla definitely called for here. Again, I was trying to keep the 1st section to gismu only. Perhaps pulling some of those out will be a be a better solution. "tcati" should probably be "tcati > patxu" (similarly for ckafi -> ckafi patxu) . Agreed. It's 2 words where I wanted just 1 for that section. But agreed. "Filberts" are nuts > ("narge"), not just "spati" (although I admit the picture doesn't > look very nutty). I did not know this. Thanks. Your "blaci" isn't actually "something made of > glass", but a "kabri joi botpi". For strawberry, "jbari" is a better > choice than the generic "grute". Changed on my local copy. Part II: > "ko viska lo bakni .e lo cmalu cifnu bakni" Nothing exactly wrong > here, but I'd say the last bakni is unnecessary with the context. > > "re ninmu cu cpacu lo xrula" Not sure why you decided not to keep > "Aunt Mary and Maria", but "cpacu" should at least be "crepu". Simplicity's sake, especially at the start of section 2. Again, I need to learn up my vocab. "Betty is taking eggs to market" -> "la betis bevri lo sovda lo zarci" Thanks. "ko viska lo nu lo jipci cu sidju lo cifnu jipci lo nu citka" -> "ko > viska lo nu lo jipci cu ctigau lo cifnu" Using this, even though I wanted to keep lujvo out of this. "Little Maria is saying her lessons" -> "la marias voi cmalu cu bacru > lo [my] selcli" It's definitely the right translation, but I'm worried about voi being the least used of selma'o NOI. It's not even in l4b to my memory. It's going in though, se cilre rather than selcli for preference sake. "lo xirma cu plipe": You can add "ga'u lo garna" or perhaps even "fo > lo garna" (although that might imply it would bang into the rail) zo ga'u, nice word. You have a typo: "fimpe" -> "finpe". (also, "tom" should properly be > "tam" to keep the English pronunciation) zo tom is closer to my pronunciation, after checking pronunciation guides again. "la djon cu bajra" -> "la djan cu sutra bajra gi'e kansa lo djine (or > cukla)". You can also use "la djan cu sutra bajra fi'o kansa lo > djine/cukla", but that might be to advanced for a beginner book.... I think stripping this down to la djon cu bajra kelci suffices for this. "la .elen cu kelci" -> maybe "la .elen slilu kelci ga'ure'o lo skori" Tricky translating this pe'i. "la .aris. cu kelci lo ri cifnu xirma". Ponies aren't baby horses, > they are simply small horses. Also maybe "selbei" rather then just > "kelci"? I thought that they were infant horses. Again se bevri instead of selbei. "la .an cu dunda lo cidja lo jipci" -- nothing per se wrong here, but > we do have "ctigau" for "feed". (la .an ctigau lo jipci) This time I'm going for the slightly simpler dunda. "ko viska lo nu kelci lo cmalu bolci" The original doesn't have > "See..." -> "la tcarlz joi la eduard kelci lo cmalu bolci" ki'e "la marias. cu dunda lo cidja loi melbi cipni pe la my" -- "la my" is > not what you want. Use simply "my". (and see previous comments about > "ctigau") > > "la ualter cu dunta lo cidja lo ractu" -- You misspelled "dunda", and > in order to be consistent, use a period in front of and behind > "ualter" (and of course, see ctigau) > > "la an. cu cpacu lo zumri": What happened to Betsey? You didn't like > her? (la .an. joi la betsis.). Use "crepu" rather than "cpacu", and > this use of "corn" does not zumri (maize), but in the older sense of > "grain" or "wheat" (as the picture shows), so use either "gurni" or > ""maxri". (also, again for consistency, use the period in front of > "an") Ah yes, Betsey is almost not in the picture. Again, I need to improve my vocab. "lo mamta e lo cifnu cu dansu": This is okay as is, but since they > are dancing together, maybe "joi" rather than "e" (and if you do use > "e" put a period in front of it, for consistency). > > You have "cpanu", which is clearly a typo for "cpacu" ki'e "la deimz cu kakpa fo lo tutci" -> "la djeimyz. cu kakpa fo la canpa" > (NB: "mz" isn't valid, even for names) Yes, this is exactly why I use cmacis instead of translating "James". I'll go for djim instead for simplicity's sake, and avoiding the debate on exactly why that consonant cluster is invalid. (more later, after lunch, but a nice effort, cmacis). > --gejyspa Part 2 has just arrived. I'll respond to that after my tea. Since part two needs doing as well, I won't upload the changes just yet. mu'o mi'e cmacis ------=_Part_24474_6453553.1206984738796 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ki'esai gejyspa


On 31/03/2008, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:49 AM, james riley <jimr1603@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey all. As some as of you know, I completed my translation of a public
> domain picture book. You can find it here. http://cukta.bravehost.com/
> Project gutenberg has plenty of children's books that can be translated.
>  Chances are that a few errors remain. You know that I can be found here or
> in #lojban. Also, the mouseover text has not been translated. If you can't
> tell what the picture was supposed to be (and it is old enough to be out of
> copyright) then just mouseover. Sometimes I oversimplified, sometimes went a
> bit too complicated.
>


   Well-done.

    I have a few (okay, apparently a lot) comments/suggestions to make
things a bit closer to the original.  Yes, I know that's a "boy" in
the original, but if any modern day boy was dressed like that, I think
someone would want a long talk with their parents

Yes, pink used to be the boy's colour. I've changed it to the generic "child".
 

:-D .... On the
references of your last sentence:  "grute" is way too general for
grape.  As lojban.org is down right now, I don't know if there is
currently a specific word for grapes, but even selvanju might be a
better choice than just grute.  

I was trying to keep compound words out of the first section. But fair enough.

The building you have called a "dinju"
(church in the original) should be a "malsi". 

Yes, incentive to learn more vocab on my part. 

 And come on, three
"xrula" and  _seven_ pictures simply idenitified as "cipni"?  Some
fu'ivla definitely called for here.

Again, I was trying to keep the 1st section to gismu only. Perhaps pulling some of those out will be a be a better solution.

"tcati" should probably be "tcati
patxu" (similarly for ckafi -> ckafi patxu) .  

Agreed. It's 2 words where I wanted just 1 for that section. But agreed. 

"Filberts" are  nuts
("narge"), not just "spati"  (although I admit the picture doesn't
look very nutty).  

I did not know this. Thanks.

Your "blaci" isn't actually "something made of
glass", but a "kabri joi botpi".  For strawberry, "jbari" is a better
choice than the generic "grute".

Changed on my local copy.

  Part II:
"ko viska lo bakni .e lo cmalu cifnu bakni"  Nothing exactly wrong
here, but I'd say the last bakni is unnecessary with the context.

"re ninmu cu cpacu lo xrula"  Not sure why you decided not to keep
"Aunt Mary and Maria", but "cpacu" should at least be "crepu".

Simplicity's sake, especially at the start of section 2. Again, I need to learn up my vocab.

"Betty is taking eggs to market" -> "la betis bevri lo sovda lo zarci"

Thanks.

"ko viska lo nu lo jipci cu sidju lo cifnu jipci lo nu citka" -> "ko
viska lo nu lo jipci cu ctigau lo cifnu"

Using this, even though I wanted to keep lujvo out of this.

  "Little Maria is saying her lessons" -> "la marias voi cmalu cu bacru
lo [my] selcli"

It's definitely the right translation, but I'm worried about voi being the least used of selma'o NOI. It's not even in l4b to my memory. It's going in though, se cilre rather than selcli for preference sake.

"lo xirma cu plipe":  You can add "ga'u lo garna" or perhaps even "fo
lo garna" (although that might imply it would bang into the rail)

zo ga'u, nice word.

You have a typo: "fimpe" -> "finpe".  (also, "tom" should properly be
"tam" to keep the English pronunciation)

zo tom is closer to my pronunciation, after checking pronunciation guides again.

"la djon cu bajra" -> "la djan cu sutra bajra gi'e kansa lo djine (or
cukla)".  You can also use "la djan cu sutra bajra fi'o kansa lo
djine/cukla", but that might be to advanced for a beginner book....

I think stripping this down to la djon cu bajra kelci suffices for this.

"la .elen cu kelci"  -> maybe "la .elen slilu kelci ga'ure'o lo skori"

Tricky translating this pe'i.

"la .aris. cu kelci lo ri cifnu xirma".  Ponies aren't baby horses,
they are simply small horses.  Also maybe "selbei" rather then just
"kelci"?

I thought that they were infant horses. Again se bevri instead of selbei.

"la .an cu dunda lo cidja lo jipci" -- nothing per se wrong here, but
we do have "ctigau" for "feed". (la .an ctigau lo jipci)

This time I'm going for the slightly simpler dunda.

"ko viska lo nu kelci lo cmalu bolci"  The original doesn't have
"See..." -> "la tcarlz joi la eduard kelci lo cmalu bolci"

ki'e

"la marias. cu dunda lo cidja loi melbi cipni pe la my" --  "la my" is
not what you want.  Use simply "my".  (and see previous comments about
"ctigau")

"la ualter cu dunta lo cidja lo ractu" -- You misspelled "dunda", and
in order to be consistent, use a period in front of and behind
"ualter" (and of course, see ctigau)

"la an. cu cpacu lo zumri":  What happened to Betsey?  You didn't like
her?  (la .an. joi la betsis.).  Use "crepu" rather than "cpacu", and
this use of "corn" does not zumri (maize), but in the older sense of
"grain" or "wheat" (as the picture shows), so use either "gurni" or
""maxri".  (also, again for consistency, use the period in front of
"an")

Ah yes,  Betsey is almost not in the picture. Again, I need to improve my vocab.

"lo mamta e lo cifnu cu dansu":  This is okay as is, but since they
are dancing together, maybe "joi" rather than "e" (and if you do use
"e" put a period in front of it, for consistency).

You have "cpanu", which is clearly a typo for "cpacu"

ki'e

"la deimz cu kakpa fo lo tutci"  -> "la djeimyz. cu kakpa fo la canpa"
  (NB: "mz" isn't valid, even for names)

Yes, this is exactly why I use cmacis instead of translating "James". I'll go for djim instead for simplicity's sake, and avoiding the debate on exactly why that consonant cluster is invalid.

  (more later, after lunch, but a nice effort, cmacis).
                --gejyspa

Part 2 has just arrived. I'll respond to that after my tea. Since part two needs doing as well, I won't upload the changes just yet.

mu'o mi'e cmacis

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