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( [68.81.86.40]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b32sm11371014ana.33.2008.04.14.18.55.05 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3477B383-2CA1-4BE4-AE34-6A50D819EA88@gmail.com> From: Minimiscience To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Subject: [lojban-beginners] du'e preti Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:55:04 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 476 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: minimiscience@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners doi ba'o cilre lobypli: I have completed the very excellent *Lojban for Beginners* and looked through parts of the Lojban Reference Grammar for elaboration on several topics; however, I still have quite a number of questions about the Lojban language: 1. If all of the places of a have been filled, and said is nested inside another (e.g., in an abstraction), is it still necessary to explicitly terminate the nested if it is followed by a of the main ? 2. How should overlapping places be interpreted? E.g., in "," does occupy the second or third place of ? Is this sentence even grammatically correct? 3. When joining two with , it doesn't actually seem necessary to terminate the former one with . The justification given in the LRG (§14.14) only applies to poorly written parsers without look-ahead capabilities, which yacc-generated parsers almost certainly are not. Unless there exists a construct which can be either a or a simultaneously, is there any good reason why should be required here? 4. Is it permissible to combine a ZAhO with other tense to use as a single ? If so, am I right in thinking that a ZAhO used as a alone is grammatically equivalent to that same being preceded by ""? If not, elaborate on what it means for such a compound to be used as a . 5. Why can't an elidable terminator be elided when followed by a vocative phrase (LRG, §6.11)? As the meaning of a vocative is independent of its location and has no real bearing on the meaning of the surrounding , what difference does it make whether or not the elidable terminator is present? 6. When a has internal and/or a relative clause attached to it, does its terminating (if present) belong before or after the internal or clause? 7. Can the terminator "" be applied to discursive introduced with ""? 8. How do you state that someone said a string of non-grammatical words that include "" but not "" or ""? 9. After uttering an empty ZOI or LOhU construct, if one were to erase it with s, would it be necessary to utter a for the empty quoted text? 10. What pro- should be used to refer to the speaker and only a few of many listeners? 11. Can be used to say that one invented a physical device (which would seem to contrast with its other translations)? If not, what word should be used? If yes, how can one distinguish invention of a physical device from composition of literature, music, et cetera? 12. Does "" suffice as a term for "unordered set" (or, at least, a set that does not necessarily have an intrinsic order), or must we be content with "" and ""? 13. Regarding modals like "," "," "," & "," which one is used for stating why a (non-human) animal did something? Which one is used when the reason is an instinct or a primitive need? What about reflexes? Which one is used for things which can be expressed as the result of a personality trait? What modal is used when stating that someone did something because he or she was hypnotized? Which one would most likely be used if one was forced to do something or be killed? What if a person was tricked into doing something? I could probably think of more situations, but this should be enough for now. 14. I am quite certain that I once read somewhere that the spaces in Lojban text are unnecessary and that words can be unambiguously determined from the text without them; however, I cannot find where I read this (if ever), and the issues raised in the next three questions seem to go against that claim. Hence, just to be clear, are the spaces in Lojbanic text optional & unnecessary? Do the claim that Lojban sounds can be broken up into words in exactly one way and the audio-visual isomorphism of the language together imply that written Lojban does not change when the spaces are removed? How does the answer to this interact with the below three queries? 15. According to the Lojban Reference Grammar, chapter 4, section 9, item 5, any monosyllabic before a must be followed by a pause, yet this would require an inordinate amount of pauses to be inserted into text. By "pause," does the LRG mean a , in which case why has no one been following this rule, or does it mean a space, in which case how does this interact with Lojban's claims of audio-visual isomorphism and that sounds can be divided into words in only one way? 16. Section 17.4 of the LRG states that the spaces in and are mandatory to avoid confusion with , yet the rules for explicitly prohibit compounds of & . Why is the former restriction there? 17. If the spaces are omitted from a text, how can one tell where a ends? For example, how do you know that "" is entirely one and not, say, ""? 18. When the LRG states that all are emphasised on the penultimate syllable, is it merely repeating a consequence of the pronunciation rules, or is it indirectly requiring that the penultimate syllable of a not contain a syllabic consonant or "y"? If the former, wouldn't it be simpler for it to just state that must have at least two syllables? 19. Exactly what changes to the language have been made since the release of *The Complete Lojban Language*/the Lojban Reference Grammar? Does there exist a completely up-to-date compilation of all of the rules of Lojban grammar (that is at least more user-friendly than that horrendous tiki)? 20. In the HTML version of the LRG, the table in item 4 of §4.14 is clearly not formatted properly; how should it appear? 21. Why do the subunit listed in the notes for "" use the conversion rather than ? 22. Why are there 768 that appear in the old list but not the "current" one? I have more questions, but they can be dealt with later. For now, the answers to these will be just fine. mu'omi'e la'o gy. Minimiscience .gy.