From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Apr 15 11:03:27 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1JlpV9-0002SG-31 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:03:27 -0700 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.239]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1JlpUx-0002RY-5m for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:03:26 -0700 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id c48so1173860wra.1 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:03:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=9mj9Inv7NpDGXEDWmvGdLfSjeIPTXNbUprXk+In69EE=; b=HMeSSK5Z7EtnUmkmjhkAaPVf5ouyfmZxXePLTu2asmH9WFzG3yartOA/wIRJ/E389crcGq4MMNPDgOWdGXCwRG3wzxS2eNlFdOez9dtfPafKwwAs9GAxTi3XdoN0oLi//p0yGrV5trPiw3IQxJ4/G5m99O+EXvU7HSw/AHctOjQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=jL8egAUiz1GNua35QhF/H5JwlS29s/cWknoyULnQjn0dl+ss61te0wLLOeR1CflRAP4iKq9VwyS8yXb8F9815fldBEsX/LnFtrH3zKD2q9ikK7r1Ae3DxRxyrOrODEsnuVTduJR6esaifRwVFYtsRPJvB5aPpAM4HP2ke+jOP/I= Received: by 10.141.68.5 with SMTP id v5mr4480546rvk.179.1208282589132; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.87.17 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <96f789a60804151103i74dd00a8r42e5a42bead1db66@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 14:03:09 -0400 From: "Michael Turniansky" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: du'e preti In-Reply-To: <3477B383-2CA1-4BE4-AE34-6A50D819EA88@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <3477B383-2CA1-4BE4-AE34-6A50D819EA88@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 480 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 9:55 PM, Minimiscience wrote: > > 2. How should overlapping places be interpreted? E.g., in " fa > mi ta>," does occupy the second or third place of ? Is > this > sentence even grammatically correct? > 2. How should overlapping places be interpreted? E.g., in "," does occupy the second or third place of ? Is this sentence even grammatically correct? Brett says: >It's grammatically correct but somewhat discouraged. It's my understanding that the "ta" goes into the same position as the "ti", >officially. But if that's what you mean to say, and you'd like to be understood, you would be wiser to add an additional "fe", or much >better yet to take care of all of your "fe"s at once, like normal, with ".e" or some other proper connector. :) Xorxes says: > It's grammatical. I think the official rule is that {ta} goes in x3 there, i.e. > the first unfilled place after the {fa} place, but it's better to avoid setting > up such traps to the reader/listener And now you see why they BOTh discouraged you, since they contradict each other. FWIW, The CLL (chapter 9.3) says: > What if some sumti have FA tags and others do not? The rule is that after a FA-tagged sumti, any sumti following it occupy the places >numerically succeeding it, subject to the proviso that _an already-filled place is skipped_... > 3.8) mi klama fi la .atlantas. le dargu > fe la bastn. le karce > I go x3= Atlanta the road > x2= Boston the car. > I go from Atlanta via the road to Boston using the car. >In Example 3.8, ``mi'' occupies the x1 place because it is the first sumti in the sentence (and is before the selbri). The second sumti, ``la >.atlantas.'', occupies the x3 place by virtue of the tag ``fi'', and ``le dargu'' occupies the x4 place as a result of following ``la .atlantas.''. >Finally, ``la bastn.'' occupies the x2 place because of its tag ``fe'', and ``le karce'' skips over the already-occupied x3 and x4 places to >land in the x5 place. So, Jorge is correct. > > > 4. Is it permissible to combine a ZAhO with other tense to > use as a single ? If so, am I right in thinking that a > ZAhO > used as a alone is grammatically equivalent to > that > same being preceded by ""? If not, elaborate on what it > means > for such a compound to be used as a . > I can and do use ZAhO by themselves as sumti tcita, and often have arguments with Jorge on how they hsould be interprted. It's covered in chapter 10, section 12.7 -> 12.13. As for compound tenses, sure we can interpret something like "mi pu klama ba de'a lo nu ciska" as "I went after taking a break from writing" (although we can't tell from this sentence if I went while I was still on break, or after resumption of writing, merely that I went after the start of the break). Others may argue this interpretation. > > 11. Can be used to say that one invented a physical device (which > would seem to contrast with its other translations)? If not, what word > should be used? If yes, how can one distinguish invention of a > physical > device from composition of literature, music, et cetera? > Sure. Like many gismu, its range isn't necessarily the same as anygiven natlang. For example, lojban has a single word (tirxu) for tiger/leopard/cheetah. It can be used for any or all of them. If more specificity is needed/wanted (and often it is determinable by context), you can simply add modifiers. Since (in your case) the what-is-invented is specified in the X2 place, it probably isn't necessary to make a tanru etc. If you wanted to say, for example, "The composer died" -> "le finti be loi zgike cu mrobi'o " works fine. > > 20. In the HTML version of the LRG, the table in item 4 of §4.14 is > clearly > not formatted properly; how should it appear? > b p, v c j, s d t f p, v g k, x j c, z k g, x l r m n n m p b, f r l s c, z t d v b, f x g, k z j, s (assuming this comes through properly itself. The letter in the first column may be confused with the letter(s) following) > 21. Why do the subunit listed in the notes for "" use the > > conversion rather than ? By which I assume you mean why (for example) "sudyseldekpu" and not "sudyveldekpu"? Well, first off, those words aren't in the official wordlist (jbovlaste), so one might say you can disregard completely. The other answer is either a) the arument places for dekpu changed since those words were created (it's happened in other gismu) and/or b) it was a mistake from the get-go" > > 22. Why are there 768 that appear in the old list but not > the > "current" one? The dictionary isn't (and may never be??) finalized. The most official, up-to-date list is jbovlaste, which anyone can basically edit, at the risk of people voting down your definitions. Until it is finalized, things may go in and out of fashion, and of course, people can also creat nonce lujvo. Thanks for all the questions, and welcome. --gejyspa (Mike Turniansky)