From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Apr 22 15:25:44 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1JoQvn-0003nQ-S4 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:25:43 -0700 Received: from ti-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.142.187]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1JoQvh-0003md-SV for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:25:43 -0700 Received: by ti-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id j3so920491tid.20 for ; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:25:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=t8lAR6GfMitHEfc7fijMAM7rBclil1YMDbRgSbOZd+U=; b=HqBxFeRkdcyWIHQjW0yCcR6CP11WC18dqOd+ex8ayLxLmMKfszMf0l/O2SLZZV1TcWn1i/WImtCufaKy3ktvfck/0GJwbtNw3P3Ee/TGToYc8CpcRj4U9cRMf+GE/QE88531RdQQJ+tDoE8oNB29NvU5HRadrcdHrlpbhIL85Yc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=tkY//57J4f0nlr7Jvy88dFTz272jBe4pRO7aOdEBtVHi3UIvXq8pJtPqj/a/+gtgGFWBP5KSoEA8bNFlwfdpzGYPB0mzzXLOaxqJC/G7YOZW3vcvda7QSkJzKzE/aM9VsQNLFYVN+RU2Xf4xve1WBMyAkPT7GrQQNqZxkFlcabs= Received: by 10.150.156.9 with SMTP id d9mr8931ybe.48.1208900326013; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.197.6 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:38:45 -0400 From: "Brett Williams" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: zo zu'i In-Reply-To: <925d17560804220552x1bd0074di62578b252b20188d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_15954_12738793.1208900325958" References: <8F2B6180-9E5B-41E0-AAE9-1CF58B48C5D0@gmail.com> <925d17560804220552x1bd0074di62578b252b20188d@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 533 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mungojelly@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_15954_12738793.1208900325958 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 4/22/08, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > > So I think the example shows that the context does have to play > some restricting role, but the fire comment would also seem to say > that more than the immediate context must be considered. So, > something in between? The more context you admit, the clearer it becomes that not only was the "zu'i"ed referent typical of the situation, but as you zoom in closer it is in fact the only possible logical referent, the very one. Everything is exactly typical of its own situation, and nothing is more than vaguely similar to abstracted ideals like "the typical [xe klama] considered across all [nu klama]". The place in between where I believe the distinction must rest is precisely upon the point of conversational utility, that is: "zu'i" means that the speaker expects that the listener has an idea of what situation is being described, and that they can easily guess what the "zu'i"ed place is. The speaker is encouraging the listener to fill in the blank with the obvious thing; they're saying "I'm not going to say what this thing is, but it's pretty much what you'd expect it to be." So if you said "the people exited the building via the zu'i", I would think you meant the front door. If you said "the people exited the ba'e burning building via the zu'i", I would think: What's the typical way to exit a burning building? Maybe via a fire escape? It doesn't help much to consider the abstract [xe klama], which could be a spaceship on a galactic perspective, nor the very particular situation, which might as well be "zo'e". It seems to me that the situation for which a "zu'i" is typical must be a situation being understood by the listener in the particular communication context. .ie pei ga'i nai mu'o mi'e .bret. ------=_Part_15954_12738793.1208900325958 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 4/22/08, Jorge= Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmai= l.com> wrote:
So I think the example shows that the context does have to play
some re= stricting role, but the fire comment would also seem to say
that more t= han the immediate context must be considered. So,
something in between?=

 
The more context you admit, the clearer it becomes that = not
only was the "zu'i"ed referent typical of the situati= on, but as 
you zoom in closer it is = in fact the only possible logical referent,&n= bsp;
the very one.  Everything is exactly typ= ical of its own situation, 
and nothing&nb= sp;is more than vaguely similar to abstracted ideals
like "th= e typical [xe klama] considered across all [nu klama]".
 
T= he place in between where I believe the distinction must
rest is precisely upon the point of conversational utility, that is:
&q= uot;zu'i" means that the speaker expects that the listener has an =
idea of what situation is being described, and that they can
easily= guess what the "zu'i"ed place is.  The speaker is
encouraging the listener to fill in the blank with the obvious
thing; t= hey're saying "I'm not going to say what this thing
is, bu= t it's pretty much what you'd expect it to be."
 
= So if you said "the people exited the building via the zu'i",=
I would think you meant the front door.  If you said "the people =
exited the ba'e burning building via the zu'i", I would th= ink:
What's the typical way to exit a burning building?  Maybe=
via a fire escape?  It doesn't help much to consider the
abstract [xe klama], which could be a spaceship on a
galactic perspecti= ve, nor the very particular situation, which
might as well be &quo= t;zo'e".  It seems to me that the situation
for which a &= quot;zu'i" is typical must be a situation being
understood by the listener in the particular communication
context.  
.ie pei ga'i nai
 
mu'o mi'e .bret.
=

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