From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Apr 23 13:15:22 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1JolNC-0001PU-96 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:15:22 -0700 Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.173]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1JolN4-0001LW-Jj for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:15:22 -0700 Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 28so2230778wfa.25 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:15:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=dx7GoCILdGYqJbJdhoH2wORmGIVZtH4yLicm3YuWFfk=; b=itaRCtAaK/dY/ehvHl9kdVSOMZiZ2YxfYCOD8aiz45aw9gOacqPWEAnyTQp1bRtTdt2M36FTQUni+jM4Fq/34UBdmJlQ8pfryma4e3lNVrNZvzPT8biCY9GGlzaYfExKvA5TeofxnoPagvoDSnVkT8opIyFSEZo2iUZ570luJgc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=qAqz73PEzRt+vf7BTK4bFhk+CTIdb9riCHcVrYP+dEq8b3RtYYKDCDizMfXscuh5MiGKYPle53cejl9aXpNW+G5IHa+9NgtrV6ynCU7nq81651sZ6ta972Ti4fwUH9fkQegqX4jczcnhIVLCAdraObUxIkjZRt5p31i5b5GKwDk= Received: by 10.142.231.7 with SMTP id d7mr338484wfh.194.1208981284931; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.212.15 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:08:04 -0400 From: "Brett Williams" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: zo zu'i In-Reply-To: <925d17560804230542n908860oad037f155dfa4a8@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_269_11699464.1208981284917" References: <8F2B6180-9E5B-41E0-AAE9-1CF58B48C5D0@gmail.com> <925d17560804220552x1bd0074di62578b252b20188d@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560804230542n908860oad037f155dfa4a8@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 536 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mungojelly@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_269_11699464.1208981284917 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 4/23/08, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > > That's a pretty accurate description for {zo'e} too. > As I understand it, {zo'e} doesn't have to be a typical or expectable referent. It just says that there's some referent which fills the place, perhaps a strange one. So I wouldn't consider this to be a confusing communicaton: Person A: mi cliva lo dinju ku zo'e Person B: cliva fi ma? Person A: lo canko (A: "I left the building by some route." B: "What route?" A: "The window.") A window is something that can be a tercliva, so it's not necessarily a miscommunication to call it "zo'e". Indeed, saying "zo'e" when you could have as well elided the word or said "zu'i" could be considered a very weak implication that there might be something odd about that referent. OTOH I would consider this a clear miscommunication: Person A: mi cliva lo dinju ku zu'i Person B: cliva fi ma? Person A: lo canko Person B: .ue sai .ua nai xu? so'a nu do cliva lo dinju cu nu cliva fi lo canko (B: "I'm surprised; I don't understand; are almost all events of you leaving a building events of you leaving by the window??") "zo'e" is almost-identical to a blank space, but "zu'i" is a referent that the listener should already be able to predict, or at least make some good guesses about. mu'o mi'e .bret. ------=_Part_269_11699464.1208981284917 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 4/23/08, Jorge= Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmai= l.com> wrote:
That's a pretty accurate description for {zo'e} too.

As I understand it, {zo'e} doesn't have to be a typical or ex= pectable referent.  It just says that there's some referent which = fills the place, perhaps a strange one.  So I wouldn't consider th= is to be a confusing communicaton:
 
Person A: mi cliva lo dinju ku zo'e&= nbsp;
Person B: cliva fi ma?
Person A: lo canko
 
(A: &= quot;I left the building by some route."  B: "What route?&qu= ot;  A: "The window.")
 
A window is something that can be a tercliva, so it's not necessarily a= miscommunication to call it "zo'e".  Indeed, saying &qu= ot;zo'e" when you could have as well elided the word or said "= ;zu'i" could be considered a very weak implication that there migh= t be something odd about that referent.  OTOH I would consider this a = clear miscommunication:
 
Person A: mi cliva lo dinju ku zu'i
Person B: cliva fi ma= ?
Person A: lo canko
Person B: .ue sai .ua nai xu? so'a nu do c= liva lo dinju cu nu cliva fi lo canko
 
(B: "I&#= 39;m surprised; I don't understand; are almost all events of you leavin= g a building events of you leaving by the window??")
 
"zo'e" is almost-identical to a blank space, but &q= uot;zu'i" is a referent that the listener should already be able t= o predict, or at least make some good gu= esses about. 
 
mu'o mi'e .bret.

------=_Part_269_11699464.1208981284917--