From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Apr 24 07:24:01 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Jp2Mi-0003PY-OM for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:24:01 -0700 Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.156]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Jp2Mc-0003Oc-3y for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:24:00 -0700 Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so2818912fga.0 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:23:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=TO1XFy+fcvYV66M4+Ib1g7bcsUfV/mmUxkeV1OKL9C0=; b=LvA6718/rLqpdzT9YAdM7Tuh9EaDOj5NA4p901o21MzrBd2fU9t1EYriQmZFuKcUqcrahKbGP0QlatKMBlQcqSY7Ilh+VnPkGrtEDmRVBU/72hww7wFpXpQ66AOVYDfn+tg8cqm8p7GWhp0q04mSeyS3Mtg7SRqewkSwrXnSn+s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=PzSpBA2efKrNHJgz2WzvyW8UlPI9LmRqpA2eLYlc73C4UYgSl/isXhmF1+vmA2jAJ6637luD9rh9umXrQnMbicutRpwlpGusYdb/MWxDzZQbCNnqHmYd3F9Ry678mEbaSxvwUh/YtQbgOoCJoTGejnTaeNK/h8noy9z8T1EfGlc= Received: by 10.86.59.2 with SMTP id h2mr5823892fga.19.1209047032519; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.33.18 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560804240723w71d46f7djba1f4d34c331dea@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:23:52 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: zo zu'i In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <8F2B6180-9E5B-41E0-AAE9-1CF58B48C5D0@gmail.com> <925d17560804220552x1bd0074di62578b252b20188d@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560804230542n908860oad037f155dfa4a8@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 537 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 4/23/08, Brett Williams wrote: > > As I understand it, {zo'e} doesn't have to be a typical or expectable > referent. It just says that there's some referent which fills the place, > perhaps a strange one. {zo'e} is meant to be obvious or irrelevant, for a pure "some" there's {da}. > So I wouldn't consider this to be a confusing > communicaton: > > Person A: mi cliva lo dinju ku zo'e > Person B: cliva fi ma? > Person A: lo canko > > (A: "I left the building by some route." B: "What route?" A: "The > window.") > > A window is something that can be a tercliva, so it's not necessarily a > miscommunication to call it "zo'e". Indeed, saying "zo'e" when you could > have as well elided the word or said "zu'i" could be considered a very weak > implication that there might be something odd about that referent. An explicit {zo'e} is odd because it draws attention to a place by using a word that is supposedly meant to be used when you don't want to draw attention to that place. It sort of defeats its own purpose. (One exception is when it's required for syntactic reasons, but using it when it could be left out has an odd effect.) mu'o mi'e xorxes